Shotgun Sports USA
Join us as we bring you insights from some of the most skilled clay-target shooters worldwide. Our podcast is dedicated to Sporting Clays, FITASC, Trap Shooting, and Skeet Shooting, offering extensive coverage of all facets of Clay Target Sports. Immerse yourself in valuable knowledge through interviews with renowned coaches, dive into the dynamic environment of gun clubs, connect with top-notch vendors, and explore the innovations propelling the sport forward. Tune in for a captivating journey through the realm of elite shotgun sports!
Shotgun Sports USA
Rich Cole: Cole Fine Guns and Gunsmithing
Unlock the secrets of custom shotgun craftsmanship with Rich from Cole Gunsmithing! This episode of Shotgun Sports USA gives an in-depth look at the meticulous art of creating custom stocks, the precision of CNC technology, and the innovations of their newly redesigned website. Rich shares invaluable insights on how they balance detailed technical information to combat industry misinformation while maintaining accessibility for all enthusiasts.
Discover the magic behind manufacturing competition gun stocks as we explore the critical role of CNC technology and traditional hand-finishing techniques. Rich walks us through the intricacies of scanning pattern stocks to create CAD models that ensure perfect duplication and optimal fitting, essential for competitive shooters.
Welcome to Shotgun Sports USA. Powered by Winchester Ammunition, the American Legend. Listen to the best shotgun shooters from all over the world in every discipline Championship winning coaches, gun clubs, target setters, vendors, as well as companies that make it all happen, brought to you by Briley Rick Hemingway's Promatic Trap Sales, cole Gunsmithing, clay, target Vision, castellani USA and Falcon Strike. Thanks for listening and remember to visit us online at ShotgunSportsUSAcom, like us on Facebook and follow us on Instagram.
Speaker 2:On today's show. We're glad to have the man behind Coalfine Guns and Gunsmithing. His wealth of knowledge never fails to impress. If you're curious about the craftsmanship of custom stocks and the precision of pattern duplication, this is the episode for you. Also, stay tuned for more on your favorite shotguns like Beretta, perazzi, blaser and Zoli.
Speaker 3:Let's welcome back the one again hi, justin, nice to talk to you this evening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I've been trying to do this. I think I talked to you, saw Jack Links or something, and I said you know, rich, I need to get you back on the show and you've been so busy with everything you've got going on and we're finally getting around to doing this.
Speaker 3:No, it's good. It's good to hear from you. It's been a busy year. A lot of you know been a lot of growth in the business, a lot of changes. You know sometimes changes are painful, but all the changes have been good.
Speaker 2:I know, you know I was going to mention that you I've noticed your website's redesigned. I mean, I've talked to different people. That's working for you. Now, what is Coal Gun doing and where do you you know? Where are you planning to take this?
Speaker 3:Sure, sure. Well, you know we're kind of growing like the grass is. You know we're doing it organically, from the sense that you know we're trying to look at. You know what our areas of expertise are and you know what are the demands of the marketplace, demands of the marketplace, and then try and put our energy into the, the, the, the areas whereby you know we can utilize our expertise and provide service for folks.
Speaker 3:Um, you know the website, of course that's, you know that's an ongoing thing. You know technology is, you know, changes by the day. You know we've had a website for many, many, many years and and, uh, you know, although I'm not, you know, well-versed with that, with that technology, you know I'm, you know, pretty much a guy who was, you know, trained with a hacksaw and a file. Um, you know, we, we, we certainly realize the importance of our website and you know, not only does it, is it in a place that you know that, that we're able to show our product and sell our product, you know, through our web store. But you know we try and provide meaningful information, you know, on it as well, and some of the FAQs, and you know just sort of some of the announcements and things that we try and kind of get out there for folks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really. It seems like it's never ending, like if you get on here you can find everything you want to find out about a shotgun, it seems to me. I mean you can find. It seems like you can get parts and wood and you can schedule all kinds of things and call people. I saw what it is.
Speaker 3:Sure, you know, you know there's, there's, there's so much content. You know, and and I think that you know it's, it's, it's, it's good and it's bad, because you know my guys, that sort of work on the website and you know the marketing people say, huh, there's too much information there. It's confusing, you know, but from my standpoint, I'm a technician, you know, and I do realize the value of having a lot of information, even if it's difficult for a person to find to, to, to find what it is that they're really looking for. You know, the reality is is that you know there's so much misinformation. You know, in our industry, you know, particularly on the, you know the, the technical aspects of, you know of the guns that you know. I, I feel as though it's it's a benefit to our, you know, to our client, to, you know, have a website that really has a lot of information there that they can get their teeth into and, of course, a lot of it too is just product.
Speaker 3:We've got so many different things that are going on now between our custom stock making with the selection of blanks. I mean, one of the things that we've done is that we've taken photos of all of our, all of our upgrade gunstock blanks that we use to to make custom stocks because so many of our clients are unable to travel. You know, to one of our locations where we do this kind of work that you know the um, you know a lot of it's done by by phone and by by email and digital photography and and you know having having a lot of the the blanks and then the upgrade wood sets for the Berettas that we you know that we have there Um, you know it just. It just gives people or you know the resource to get on there and get the information they're looking for, find the product they're looking for.
Speaker 2:And all I was. I was sitting here. It's kind of funny you brought that up. I'm sitting here on the wood page right now, for DT11 is just going through them. All of this stuff on your website is actually at your one of your locations, right?
Speaker 3:Everything but the unmachined blanks. You know, um, you know it's, it's one of our. You know we've got three locations, of course. You know we've got the original location in Harpswell, maine, and then the Naples Florida location and, uh, the San Antonio at the NSC location. So you know everything that is on our web page is in one of those three shops, with the exception of the blanks that are not machined for a specific gun, because you know I have a partner in Marcheno, italy, that is a real top-notch expert in 5-axis CNC and what we do is we utilize his services to do a lot of the internal machining and preparation of the blanks. When we make custom stocks, sometimes we don't have these patterns ourselves, and so you know we have him do that internal machining and then send the blank to us and then we set it up on our CNC system. And you know we work from a scan or a digital file that you know that we have, that we've developed, you know, to do the outside profiling, All right.
Speaker 2:Talk about that internal. What you're talking about as far as inletting the wood, I'm assuming is what you mean, correct?
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, you know.
Speaker 3:So, just you know, to make sure that you know my terminology is correct, you know when I refer to inletting I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:You know the drilling of the stop bolt hole up through the center of the blank and how it relates then to the internal machining where all of the clearance is given for the wood so that it can slide onto the receiver without having any gaps or anything you know around it.
Speaker 3:And uh, you know we, we do all that with, uh, with cnc technology, because you know the technology in effect is perfect. When you, you know, when you have a model that you've corrected, that you've created, um, you know the machine will always follow that model without fail and barring a cutter breaking or your part slipping in its fixture, you always get in effect a perfect duplication of the computer program that you've set up to to machine. And you know that's so important in competition guns, um, because the guns, you know they take such a beating under recoil and the number of shots that you know that the that the competitive shooters fire, you know, in these guns it's it's really important to have that internal work done correctly so there's as much wood on the inside as there can possibly be just leaving enough clearance for the parts to be able to move what are if?
Speaker 2:if this wasn't done correctly through a cnc like you're talking about, what could happen? Would the gun not? Would the gun not cycle?
Speaker 3:I mean, sure? Well, I mean that the stock, the stock would break. Um, the stock could, could, move, you know, and and and move around on the receiver, um, and you know, have a different feel to the shooter. Uh, that would generally lead to breaking, or or again, um, you could, you could have what you said, justin you could have a failure to fire, you could have, you know, hammers or sears, trigger components or something, cocking rods, uh, cocking cams could rub on the inletting on the inside and be, you know, be, be, obstructed by the wood, and the gun would not function properly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so it's important to have that right. And uh, so talk about. You just mentioned the CNC on the inside. All right, Well, we just went over to you have a CNC machine for the outside at one of your shops. Is it in Maine? Is that where it's at?
Speaker 3:That's, that's in Maine. Yeah, my, my oldest son, larry, uh, you know, of course he's grown up at the bench and you know, went down the. You know the the manufacturing route with, uh, um, precision machining metals primarily, but he, you know, he does the wood. We have one machine that's a three-axis CNC with a point counterpoint set up on it and basically that machine is dedicated just to machining stocks and you know basically what we do is. You know we have. You know we have a fixture that we put the machined blank. That's been inlet, it's CNC inlet, and we put that on the fixture and the fixture holds it and then the machine will cut the outside of that stock blank to whatever the program is that the machine has been commanded. You know to run, that the machine has been commanded you know to run and you know. So basically you know the. The.
Speaker 3:The challenge for us always because you know we're not doing any production, we're, we're making one at a time. You know everything is custom the challenge is always how do you get that external dimension? You know, you know we talk about people doing fittings and so on and so forth, and you know when, when, you know when a shooter, if they know what their stock dimensions are. Um, and they've they've worked with someone like you know, we work with jim greenwood a lot. You know jim, jim's very, very good at doing pattern stocks and and, uh, of course, he's good at doing finish sets as well. I mean, he's a, you know, he's a, uh, you know, a real ace at his craft. Um, but he's one man and he's busy and and you know.
Speaker 3:So what what we do is, uh, we would take a pattern stock that that a shooter has, that they're comfortable with. We set that up on a fixture and we do a scan of that, you know. So it's a digital laser scanner that scans that and and then we edit that scan and create a CAD model that we then command the CNC system to follow on that blank that has been set up on that machine, and that CNC machine, of course, will then duplicate on that blank an absolute perfect model of what that scan was from the shooter's pattern stock. Um, so that's, that's a perfect situation. If somebody's got a pattern stock that they want to have duplicated, this is a perfect way to do it, because there just isn't any margin of error. Um, generally speaking, you know, when we get someone's pattern stock, you know we've got to take all the ripples and waves and things out of it because when, when you scan, basically you're you know you're going to get a perfect duplication. So if there's, if there are any insufficiencies or problems in the pattern stock, we have to of course correct that prior to the scanning.
Speaker 3:The other way is we have a number of, you know, different grip models and things that we've created from a variety of stocks.
Speaker 3:And if an individual doesn't have a pattern stock, if we can get their stock dimensions from them and we understand what their grip size is, we will use the CNC system and machine a stock that is basically finished in the grip area. We leave the palm swell a little bit large and then we leave the back end oversized and we use the old-school method by hand with a spokeshave and cabinetmaker's rasps and side grinders with rasp discs on them and we basically finish the dimensional aspects of the butt end of the gun, you know, by hand for the shooter. And when we do it like that, generally what we want to do is we'll want to send it to the client in the white, so we've left a little bit more material on it so that they can feel it, and then we work on it again, you know, after they've had a chance to shoot the gun a little bit and return it to us with a little bit of commentary and critique on. You know what, what the changes need to be.
Speaker 2:So a lot of this stuff can be done remotely from what you're telling me, yes, it, it can, yeah, it sure can.
Speaker 3:I mean, you know the the best, obviously the best case scenario is you know you've got the customer right there in the shop and you can, you know you can work with them one-on-one. But you know we, we do, you know most all of this work in in our naples florida shop, in our harps for main shop. And you know, for folks that are out on the west coast or whatever, uh, travel is not necessarily, you know, all that convenient for them. Um, so, with you know, with being able to do videos and and, uh, facetime, and that today it's it's so easy to communicate around these things that you know we've had very, very good success with the processes that we use.
Speaker 2:Now, can you take a? This is I was just thinking this if someone's shooting a DT11, or just we'll use a DT Okay, if someone's shooting a DT11 and they also have an A400 that they want the same kind of stock on, can you convert their stock or can you build one to fit the A400 with the same dimensions as the DT11?
Speaker 3:We can closely.
Speaker 3:It really depends upon the grip.
Speaker 3:It really depends upon the grip In your semi-autos because of either the action spring tube or the stock bolt, the angle that the stock bolt comes off of a semi-auto, where the top of the grip is, ends up being a little bit higher than what you can get on most over-unders, because the axis of the draw bolt ends up being a little bit lower. And so if a person wants, for, for example, a real deep trough at the top of the grip and they've got that on their over under, you can't accomplish that on a semi-auto because you break through the hole that's required for the, the stock bolt, to go up through. And again, that's not done from a scan. That has to be done by hand because you know the, the, the scan model. For example, say, we scan a, you know a k80, and now we, we can make a perfect copy of that k80 stock, but to make you can't utilize that scan on a semi-auto because you know all. Basically, we're trying to achieve the same dimensions, but but the inletting is completely different, makes sense.
Speaker 3:So, basically we do that the old school way, using a drop stick and a set of calipers. We take all the measurements from the one gun and then we basically do the inletting by CNC. But we do all of the work to make the stock by hand Nice.
Speaker 2:On the outside we do all of the uh, the work to make the stock by hand. Nice, uh, I guess the next step is, once you have this stock done, you can I know that you offer a hand checkering machine, checkering whatever kind of checkering you want.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, sure, you know. Now. Now, you know you get to your, you get to your finish, you know, and you're finishing your checkering and that that's, that's all cosmetic. You know that's, that's um, that's the bling you know of it. Um, I guess we would call fancy wood bling, because you know most, most guys don't want a custom stock if they don't have a pretty attractive looking piece of wood.
Speaker 3:But you know, the checkering we do, we, we do, do we do um, laser checkering. You know, which again is computer driven laser. Um, and, and you know that's that's quick turnaround time, um, you know it's, it's uh, how do we say it doesn't have the, the artistic aspect that hand checkering does for some people. They're perfectly happy with that. It depends upon the. You know the use, you know what their, what their own preferences. I have, uh, we don't do our hand checkering in-house. You know that's a very specific skill set and you know I learned to do it many, many years ago and got to do it well enough to know that I didn't want to do it. So you know, it takes somebody that's got great concentration and continuing attention to detail, and you know I have just enough attention deficit disorder that I that I I want to bounce around a little bit too much, but um, we use, uh, john Reese is out in Montana and um and um, um, john, what's the?
Speaker 3:Uh Ron, ron Buck, I'm sorry, it's been a long day. Ron Buck is over here on the East coast. Um, ron Buck, I'm sorry, it's been a long day. Ron Buck is over here on the East Coast and you know those two guys are really really good and you know they're both artisans and have been doing you know checkering not only checkering, but carving. You know ornamental carving, like fish scales, and you know some of the oak leaf clusters and things like that, which you know we don't do too much of that. But you know these fellows are capable of doing it and you know they're a couple of the best in the business. There are other people out there, you know, that are good as well, but those are the two fellows that we use to do the hand checkering.
Speaker 2:So you know when we produce the stock in forend, if it's going to be hand checkering, we box it up and send it to one of those gentlemen. I would think that hand checkering would be just as tedious as maybe engraving a shotgun, wouldn't you think, or am I wrong?
Speaker 3:Well, I found it very, very tedious and, of course, I can't compare it to engraving, justin, because I don't have the artistic uh bent to to be able to engrave. I youve you know. So, um, I, I knew I wasn't going to be in an engraver right off the bat. So you know I, I don't have any experience, you know I, I have a number of friends that are, that are really, really accomplished master engravers and I have tremendous respect for their skill. Um, and I think that what would you or I might consider to be tedious, you know they look at as, uh, you know just a tremendous passion in terms of you know, their, what their, their ability to to create. You know this, this incredible artwork, you know, in steel and aluminum it's amazing.
Speaker 2:I've watched some of it online and it's I mean working under magnifying glasses and having a steady hand like that. I don't even know if I could write my name with you know some of the tools I've gotten.
Speaker 3:Well, it's pretty remarkable, you know, and, and I think there are probably some very, very good videos now, you know, on on um, you know that the engravers have got out and, um, you know, there there's some fantastic books. Um, you, you know, stefano Pedretti is a very good friend of mine and you know we have a deal with Stefano where we have a Parazzi grade, that is our dedicated grade. It's a custom Parazzi, it's called SCC grade and basically, you know what it is is it's a gun that Parazzi builds for us, and then it goes to Stefano and Stefano does the engraving and signs it, and then it goes back to Parazzi for heat treatment, final assembly, and then, and then we stock them, you know, in the USA. So it's a. You know it's a three-way project and it's a. It's a. It's a lot of fun because, you know, working with Stefano, he's he's so creative and is able to do such incredible work in terms of these engravings.
Speaker 3:He's so well known for his dogs. He's such an expert with the anatomy. When you look at a Pedretti engraved dog, you'll see the dog's tongue, you'll see the spittle in his face. You'll see the mist on his. You'll see the spittle in his face. You'll see that. You know the, the, the mist on his breath, you know as he, as he, flushes a bird. It's, it's, absolutely magnificent yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:So let's we're on shotgun stocks. All right, we've, we've. Let's back up to this, because you're gonna lose, lose me in that Green Graven stuff and I don't have any idea what all that stuff is or how to do it. So the finishes on a shotgun stock, what would you say would be the most popular, the least popular or the most durable? What?
Speaker 3:would you recommend?
Speaker 2:How about that?
Speaker 3:I think that a lot of it depends upon, again, the preference of the owner and the use of the shotgun. There are two basic types of finishes that there really are. You've got oil finish, which is the old, traditional type finish. There are a lot of different kinds of oil that are used. Most of the oils are going to be boiled linseed oil with a little bit of Japan dryer and tung oil in it, and that's going to be a good oil finish that's going to give reasonable resistance to water and perspiration. It's not that durable, okay.
Speaker 3:Your other finish is going to be like your conversion varnishes, or epoxy, two-party poxies and those, uh, synthetic type finishes. You know polyurethane, um, you know is is a polyurethane varnishes, is is one of those that we, you know, consider a hard finish. Um, those hard finishes, um are very, very durable until they become damaged. They're very difficult to repair, you know. So, for example, you know, when you the gun comes off the cart. You know, as we unfortunately see from time to time, if you've got a hard finish on the gun, the only thing you can really do to repair that is is to completely strip the finish off and start, you know, down to bare wood and and refinish the gun completely and it's, it's, it's caught. It's not particularly cost effective and, uh, you don't always get a great result. A lot of times the checkering will be damaged in the process of removing. You know the, the, you know this, this old finish, um, oil finish. On the other hand, if you get scratches and chase and things, it's, it's very, very easy to repair it without doing a complete refinish job, but it's not durable.
Speaker 3:You know, um, in the South we generally say, well, target guns in the South use hard finishes because they're they're going're gonna, it's gonna stand up to the perspiration and the whiskers and some of the rain that you, that you, that you see down there hunting guns, you know they. You know they don't get as much use, typically speaking, and people tend to like a little bit more of the classic look on the hunting guns. So you know we lean towards the oil finishes. You know, on hunting guns or target guns that are primarily used, uh, you know, up north or, you know, in in drier climates that's interesting, how that is that's you know, yeah, yeah, I mean most of the manufacturers like, for example, krighoff, parazzi, parazzi, kolar.
Speaker 3:They use hard finishes, sprayed finishes, zolli. They're distributed from Zolli International. They use the hard finish. Blaser F3s are an oil varnish, an oil varnish. The Zollis that we have built by Zolli for coal gunsmithing. We have an option where they do a nice oil finish. It's a little bit more of a traditional look. Beretta DT11s, those are all what we call a soft oil finish. It's not really an oil varnish, it's more of a matte finish and, again, real easy to repair. But again, so much of it. Justin, is what does a person like? The looks of the guy that likes that thick, real glossy look. You can't really get that thick look with oil, so you've got to go. You know you've got to go with this, the sprayed um, uh type conversion varnish or epoxy finishes for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm sure it depends, you know, with me. I like the way all finishes look. I like the way both of them look, and I think that I would like to have an oil finish stock, but I know that I don't take care of it like I should, so I'll just go for the harder finish. Sure, the way I look at it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the thing. The oil finish stocks. They require more care, they really do. Or else in the south, where you are, the perspiration and the humidity is real hard on that finish and the finish chase off and it just looks awful in no time at all.
Speaker 2:And if you don't, want to, if you don't want to sort of baby it and take care of it in that kind of a an environment it's, you're much, much better off to have the hard finish. You know, rich, I've I've known y'all for several years now and I've always thought of you as the Beretta guys, the Beretta people you know. But you you have a whole lot more there than just Beretta. I mean, like you've talked about Zoli's and and Pirazzi's, and is Zoli doing something exclusive with you at that? What you just said, they build guns for you.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, zoli, Zoli builds some guns for us with uh, instead of the hard finish, um, you know, with with a really well-done oil finish. It's a semi-glossy oil finish and it's more for the individual that likes that more classic appearance in a gun. Zoli has really come a long ways. Norbert Hausman has done a fantastic job. Most anybody who's listening to this podcast is going to know who Norbert was, from his, his tenure with uh, with Brighoff as the service manager, but Norbert's uh, you know, a real knowledgeable gun guy, very accomplished gunsmith, and and, um, you know, he's really helped uh, zoli, you know, tune their guns for the, you know, for the U S market, um, and they've done some interesting things. So we've got some guns now, you know, from Zoli, not only with the oil finish, which is, you know, which is cosmetic, but with lighter weight barrels, you know. You know they've got, they've got barrels that are several ounces lighter than than the standard guns, you know. So, for the individual that you know doesn't want a real heavy gun and is trying to keep the weight off the front end of the gun but still wants a long set of barrels, this is, this is a great option that they offer. So there there are a lot, of, a lot of little things that can be done, you know, with, with Zoli and and, like you said, you know we're, we've really been known. Cold Gun Spilling has really been known for Beretta, you know, and of course that was because I was trained by Beretta and you know I've always had, you know, quite a loyalty there. I've, you know, been a Cold Gun Spilling. Has been a warranty repair service center for, you know, beretta shotguns and their premium guns for, you know, for many years. But you know it's only a natural lateral move to.
Speaker 3:You know, some of the other manufacturers. Like you know, we do a lot of work with Parazzi. You know we sell a lot of Parazzi guns. We, you know we, we sell a lot of parazzi guns. We, you know, we stock them. We do the custom stocks on on the parazzis as well. Um, when um, you know rizzini, we do, we do a lot with rizzini. You know another, it's rizzini b? Um which is a, you know, a good quality, moderately priced over under um out of marcano, italy. Uh, whether we're US service center for them as well. When Andre Goyap came on from Blaser, of course we picked up the Blaser line because everybody that knows Blaser knows that Andre is the Blaser guru. So that gives us another service to provide our clientele.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's what I didn't expect or I didn't think of when I was, you know, looking at your site and I'm thinking, well, he's got a little bit of everything. I mean it's not just Beretta's, so it's it's you're. You're talking about Parazzi custom stocks. I don't hear a lot of people shoot parrots because I'm around a bunch of Beretta guys, but I know they're out there and I didn't know that you did that.
Speaker 3:I guess you do it for a little bit of everything. Yeah, we do it for a little bit of everything, you know. I mean again, you know we've got to, we've got to run our business based upon our strengths. Obviously you know and you know, and our strength is, you know we're basically custom. You know taking factory guns and applying certain custom features. You know to the guns that you know that we have the skillset to, you know to, to apply and of course you as a, as a competitive shooter, understand how important having a stock is that fits you and you know.
Speaker 3:So we, we've really spent the time to, you know, to learn to make proper stocks and you know and apply that. That technology that you know, that we've, that we've learned with um. You know to the, the, the other manufacturers that we, that we work with. So you know, for example, you know we, you know we do the. You know we buy the, the DT11 Berettas We've got the SL2s going now and the SL3s and the Parazzis.
Speaker 3:We buy those guns with headed blanks right from the factory. So it comes to us just with a block of wood on it for a buttstock and that saves the consumer a heck of a lot of money and time because we have foregone this inletletting process that we have to go. You know that we have to go through. We can take that gun immediately and basically machine a custom stock. So you know, in many cases we're down to an eight-week turnaround time, you know, to be able to take somebody's order, produce them a custom stock, finish and check it and deliver it in their hands. And you know it just stands to reason for us to offer that for more than just the Beretta brand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you just brought up a minute ago the DT11 headed stock guns. I can remember years back you were doing this and selling them at a deal. I mean, you could buy a DT11 with your own stock on it.
Speaker 3:Right, that's right. You can do that right off the shelf. Because what we do, justin, is when somebody buys the gun from us, we don't have to charge them the price of a full custom stock, because it's already got a headed blank on it. All we're doing is half the job. We're not doing the complete job. We don't have to make a stock and a forearm, so you're not spending thousands of dollars after you've bought a gun to put a stock that fits you on it. You know it's. It's kind of the one, the one stop. You know one stop shop, you know you, you, you buy the gun. We've got a little bit of profit in the gun. We can lower our labor costs because there isn't quite as much labor in that, and so we we can offer, you know, a very dramatic price reduction, you know, um, as opposed to what it would cost to buy the gun and then have it custom stocked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, which is a great idea. I mean, I've always thought that was a a really cool thing to do was to combine that and do what you're doing, I mean, and get a custom gun for about the same price as one that's not custom. You know that's.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's, it's a little more there. You know, a few years ago, you know, brian Buzzy with Beretta and I were really, you know, we were really trying to kind of get this thing going, you know. So I was working nights for nothing, you know, but we're not able, we can't sharpen our pencil quite as much. Now. You know where the business has grown a lot. You know we've got I think we've got about 25 employees now between our three locations. You know, and and uh, all of the people that that you know that work for us are are skilled individuals. You know, um, you know, and and uh. You know to to retain them is, um, you know we've got to treat them well, right.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, how hard is it while we're talking about that, how hard is it to find people that you need in your line of work?
Speaker 3:It just seems like there's not a lot out there. Yeah, I think that I mean honestly, I think our industry, you know, from the consumer standpoint, is in a little bit of trouble Because, you know, the handful of competent high-end over-under gunsmiths are really aging out. You know, um, you know Mitch Schultz is is is closing down. Um, God bless him. You know Eddie Anderson passed away, you know, in this in this last year. Um, I'm not a young buck anymore, um, you look like you are, you know, mike.
Speaker 3:Mike, mike, mike, mike, well, I'm trying to stay in shape. I want to make it last as long as I can, my friend. But you know, mike, mike Sherman and Lawrence Polinsky, you know, are, are, you know, are really kind of staking, taking a step back. Um, I have, I am doing more training now in my business with my younger gunsmiths than I am myself physically doing work anymore, because, you know, I realize this, this hole is out there and you know, and you know I, over the years, you know, I've been able to hire individuals really with with no experience in the trade and then teach them the way that I would like them to work. And you know, you know for for for each skilled guy that I have now, I mean, other than Andre Goyer.
Speaker 3:Andre is you know he, he, he came from Blaser, he's very, very skilled and and I can't take any credit for his you know, for his mastery of the trade, um, but you know, my other guys, um, you know, have been trained within our, within our, our company. Um, reason for that really is because I don't think that the gunsmithing schools today are providing the kind of curriculum that is necessary for an individual to learn how to do expert gunsmithing on over-under shotguns. You know now that may change in time, but you know at this point in time, you know now that may change in time, um, but you know at this, at this point in time, you know the, the individuals that you know that we had hired out of gunsmithing school, um, really had some struggles, you know they, they, they didn't, they weren't really up, weren't really up to speed, um, you know so, I, I, I, yeah, I do have some, I do have some good guys, you know, and and I hope to, I hope to treat them well enough that they want to stay with me.
Speaker 2:Right, all right Question and I'm going to see. I know you can answer this. I've I've been asked this question and I have no no idea to the answer. A DT 11, a SL2 and a SL3. What are what?
Speaker 3:Okay. So the DT11, okay, uses the in the Kirsten type cross lock locking system that all of the SO side lock Berettas have used since 1924. That type of locking system is, you know, is in the DT11. In the SL2 and the SL3, beretta departed from that and went to a modified BOSS-type locking system where it uses a BOSS locking bolt, which is that central axis locking bolt, but they retained the recoil shoulders that were traditional and very, very, very obvious when you see the side of a beret of those trapezoidal shoulders or the recoil shoulders. They retain that aspect of them. So the sl2 and the sl3 have this modified boss locking system, whereas the dt11 uses the older kirsten style lock.
Speaker 3:Um, as far as the trigger assembly is concerned, the the the sl2 target gun uses a trigger assembly which is almost identical to the dt11 trigger assembly and that it is a detachable trigger assembly. Uh, the difference basically is is only in the hammers because of the different arrangement in the firing pins. The SL3 is a side-plated gun which is more of a game gun. You know they do build up a 1232 Sporter on that one, but it's the SL3 being more of a game-style gun. It has a fixed trigger battery, the SL3, being more of a game style gun has a fixed trigger battery, whereas the SL2 has the detachable type battery. You know also the, you know the SL2, they've got a whole new barrel profile. You know now and and again, it's it's. It's interesting because you know the, the, the, the, the DT11 had the super long forcing cone, um, and then an overbore down to the choke and in the, in the sl2 they've got pretty much the same forcing cone. I think it's about a centimeter shorter but it's actually got a tighter parallel section of the actual bore before the choke and then it's got a much longer screw choke.
Speaker 3:And you know I haven't had the opportunity to do any, any, any pattern performance shooting or anything, um. I did have the opportunity to shoot the SL2 over in Lenado, um, in in Italy, at the at the product launch and, and I shot a, a bunker trap gun and a sporting gun at Lenado on. You know they just set up some, some targets and threw like a five stand and and it was impressive, it, it the gun handled real well for me, um, and you know I felt as though you know, recoil doesn't really bother me that much, but you know I would say I I felt very, very good in the way that the gun moved in my hands under recoil. So I I think that you know, I think it's going to be a pretty positive thing for Beretta. Um, albeit it's it's going to be produced in the custom shop in very, very limited quantities, so they're not going to be available like a DT 11 is.
Speaker 2:Oh no not no not at all.
Speaker 3:I mean it'll maybe, maybe in several years down the road, you know they'll they'll up their production. But you know, know, I think we've got, I think I've got two dozen guns on order. Uh, most of them are headed guns, so that you know again, you know we can do the same deal that we do with the dp-11 a person buys an sl2 from us, we'll stock the gun to their dimensions. Um, you know, and and and work a deal on that. Um, the few guns we've got coming in in in 2024, um have already been sold and you know we're taking orders for uh, 2025.
Speaker 3:One of the one of the neat things, speaking of that wood that we're we're we're talking about is, uh, when I was over in Italy, of course, I, you know, I work in Italy a lot Um, you know, I went to the factory and I, you know, I handpicked about two dozen blanks for our production of the SL2s.
Speaker 3:So I went through and, of course, when you cull through several hundred blanks, you pick out the best ones. You have really nice wood and what we did is we numbered those blanks and assigned them to certain guns. So, for example, a person could go to our website and look at the sl2s now and they could choose a specific gun with a specific blank on it and they would know what their wood was going to be. Um, that's nice, yeah, so so you're not, you're not buying a pig in a poke because you're buying a deluxe gun. You know, those guns have grade four wood, and I mean grade four can be the lower end or it can be the higher end, and you know, of course these are all going to be on the higher end because I, I personally hand selected all the blanks you know for for these so you get the, the.
Speaker 2:Does the four end come with it as well? As?
Speaker 3:like you, oh yes okay, yeah, no, no, the the four end will come. The four end will come to us finished, but without any finish on it, gotcha. So again, that's how it works for us. We just have to make a stock on the outside, because it's already got a block of wood attached to it. So this is how we're able to really save the client some money.
Speaker 2:I'm going through these SL3s on your website right now. Unbelievable looking wood, you're right, I mean you. You can see them.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, that's what you get. You know you, you know I and again I mean people say I'm, I'm interested in, you know, buying a, a nice Beretta or a Parazzi or a Zoli or something like that. And I said, look, if you, if you really want to have a good time, we'll make arrangements, we'll. You get on a flight, fly over there, go tour the factory, you know, um, they'll, they'll, they'll fit you there. You'll be able to select your wood. You'll have a whole new appreciation for what that firearm really is Once you've gone to one of these factories and see what really goes into producing something like this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing. I've never been over there. I'd love to go just to see what you see all the time.
Speaker 3:Maybe we ought to work up a trip for you. Let's go. I could give you a heck of a tour, justin, I know it.
Speaker 2:That's why I brought it up Rich.
Speaker 3:Let's ride over there. Well, 2025 will be right around the corner.
Speaker 2:You're right. Do you see the SL? I know Anthony's now shooting an sl2. Do you see that gun? Do you think it will get bigger or do you think it's going to be kind of one of those little niche things?
Speaker 3:because I think the gun is going to be. I think the gun is going to be very, very successful from the standpoint that it is going to be a very durable um and good shooting gun. Now, you know it's an expensive gun. You know you're up in the around $20,000,. You know is is sort of where you're, is sort of where you're at Um. You know that's, that's a, that's a. That's quite a check to cut Um.
Speaker 3:However, I mean we see a lot of Parazzis and Kreghoffs and you know the Kohlars and some of the upgrade. You know the engraved Blaser F3s Um. You know there are folks out there that really like having the. You know the best that they feel as though, that that they can have Um. So I I do think it's going to be a successful product. Do I think that you know you're that you're going to see them around like some of the other more common guns? No, I don't. I mean I think the production is always going to be somewhat limited, um, and and I uh again, I think that you know the the the price point is, you know it's right up there.
Speaker 2:What do you think about the lines on the SL2? I know that they talked about that for a long time. How they looked, you know, like a Lamborghini. I think they said.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, you know it's sort of the, the Euro style. Um, you know, and, and I think you know myself, you know I, I'm a classic guy, you know I. You know the, the, the beauty of a, of a British boss action gun, you know, in terms of that styling is is what really excites me. Um, you know so it's you, that styling is is what really excites me. Um, you know so it's. You know the, the. You know the actual style of the gun I think is going to really appeal to a, to, you know, potentially a younger crowd, certainly the. You know the folks that are into the. You know the, uh, the auto racing and that kind of thing will will probably appreciate. You know some of that kind of styling. Um, I'll tell you that those shapes make it a hell of a lot harder to stock yeah, I was just thinking that like it's got to be crazy to stock that gun yeah so you've got all this stuff in stock, other than maybe the sl2s, because they're spoken for until 25, correct?
Speaker 2:yeah, we've got, we've got quite an inventory, yeah, yeah you sell the auto, you know autoloaders, you sell it all oh, oh yeah, we do.
Speaker 3:You know we do the Berettas, we do the Colpros. You know we've done those for years. You know where we've taken gussium up. You know Jim Belgard, our gunsmith in the main shop. He does a great trigger job. You know he turns those A400 triggers into rifle triggers for all practical purposes. And you know, uh, you know we do everything from just cerakoting the, the gun basic, to, you know, doing fairly ornamental um, you know, fully engraved receivers and custom stocks and forends. We do the factory upgrade. You know wood sets. So you know the, the a400 is a great tool. You know you, look, look, what joe finisi has accomplished with it. You know, and, uh, I think, I think des Edmonds is is shooting an a 400 now. And you know Beretta semi autos, um, you know, regardless of the model of, you know they're pretty legendary and clay target sports. And you know, in and in the field as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. So, uh, one more thing, and I'll let you go. I know you're busy, you still, you're still doing?
Speaker 3:I'm not, I'm not busy, you know, honestly, I'm. I'm up here in the main mountains right now, sitting in my, in my camp, you know, overlooking the mountains and a nice sunset. So, um, I'm happy to, I'm happy to visit with you. I'm not, I'm not real pushed up. I've got a few days away and then I'm going to get back to uh, the, the Harpswell main shop, down on the coast on Saturday morning. How's the weather? It's fantastic buddy 70 degrees and sunny Wow.
Speaker 2:That must be nice.
Speaker 3:You'll take that, won't you?
Speaker 2:Yes, sir.
Speaker 3:Right now I will yeah, right now. You will. Yeah. I know you folks are having a heat wave down there. I got it.
Speaker 2:It's always something it feels like you get out of the shower as soon as you walk outside with your clothes on.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's just you know, you've been down there.
Speaker 2:So, you're still doing the cold chokes right.
Speaker 3:We still are doing the cold chokes. Yeah, yeah, we, we absolutely are. You know we're. We've um, we've got a um, we've got a special um model coming out with Rizzini which is a, a special makeup for, for cold gunsmithing. I don't want to talk too much about it. We don't have it yet, but you know it's something that they're building, that, uh, that we've specced out and we we've produced um, you know our, our precision chokes, you know for that model and and that ought to be out in the next, uh, next 60 days or so.
Speaker 3:But, uh, you know we're just, uh, you know the choke tubes are. It's a limited production, but you know we're just, you know the choke tubes it's a limited production for us. You know we're doing the Beretta OBHP chokes. We've had tremendous success with the comments that we've had with the shooters, the way those chokes perform for them. But you know we're never going to be a big choke tube maker. You know it's really a boutique product for us, choke tube maker. You know it's, uh, it's really a boutique product for us, um, you know for, you know for some of our own, you know in-house custom work, um, and and again, you know some retail sales.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, you and John, are really, or your whole company is really involved with the youth, which I like. Talk about that just for a second, how you help these kids and how you want to see these kids in the future. Invest a little bit of time now with these kids and in the future you have great human beings. I mean, I just think that it's amazing that you two, or your whole company, is involved with the youth like you are.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I believe that you know, to live right, it can't be totally, totally self-serving. You know, I think we all should look in our heart and be willing to give something back. And you know, I think if you look at what's going on around the world and our society, you know these days we owe it to the youth, you know, to try and give them opportunities, you know, to grow and to develop and to be surrounded by people that have, you know, good ethics. You know, and positive attitudes. And I think that we see, you know, in the shooting communities, most of the people are good people. You know they're good folks and you know, we've noticed that. You know that the parents that have these youth shooters, these folks are really working with their kids, you know, to try and raise them right, and you know so. Therefore, we look at this, we want to do everything we can do to help, you know, these parents keep their youths in the sport, keep them around the you know the shooters and keep them in it. You know. So we, you know we have our little thing, team Cole, which is really my wife's passion. I have to give her really the credit because, you know she's the one who really has interacted with these young folks and their parents and has done so much to try and help them.
Speaker 3:We don't really have anything formal, it's really on a case-by-case basis. We try and do what we can we do sponsor some of the youth shoots and try and give some things to some of the teams. You know where we can. Anybody that's you know in this business knows that. You know it's not a get-rich-quick scheme, you know. So we're limited, you know, financially in terms of what we're able to do. But we want to do everything that we can. You know, and I'd love to see some of the other dealers and the other manufacturers sort of take up that torch and realize that you know, these young people are going to be the ones that form the future that we're all going to retire into. And, uh, you know we, we would be well served to to do everything we can for the, you know, for these young shooters in our sport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great thing that you do. You know that your, your whole company, does uh what you got planned for this year. I do you know your, your whole company, does uh what you got planned for this year. I know you're having a good time right now. What do you? What's your plans for the rest of the year Are?
Speaker 3:you going to be at any of these tournaments? Or Well, I'm going to be. I, honestly, myself, personally, I'm going to go to the Vermont state shoot because I'm up here in Maine working the main shop, um, you know, for the summer. So I'm going to get over there. I'm going to go over there and I'm probably going to try and shoot some of those targets with those folks over there. Gianna Santo is one of our sponsored shooters and she'll be over there. That's her home club and so we want to go over and see her and her family. And of course, I'll be at the Nationals.
Speaker 3:I always enjoy seeing all of our folks at the Nationals. You know I figure we have. You know we have our three full-time locations. And then we have, you know, in Marengo, ohio, for the SCTP. You know we have a. You know we have a little store there and we'll be there. We'll be sending people out there for the for the duration of the SCTP shoot for the kids there. But you know, other than you know, people ask me are you going to go to the regionals and this, that and the other? And you know we're really not going to this year. I think that you know we're going to try and stay right in the shop, do the work that we've got there. You know all of our shops have got a lot of work. We've got a lot of things that are, you know, that are going on a lot of customers' jobs. And you know, I think we're going to do what we do best and that's do the gunsmithing, you know, do the service work, the custom jobs and, you know, continue to try and develop worthwhile products.
Speaker 2:Well, listen, you and John have a good time, and you know. Get back to work when you can and I'll be in touch with you, and if you need anything, just holler.
Speaker 3:I appreciate you talking to me tonight Awful, nice, awful nice talking to you there. Yeah, nice talking to you.
Speaker 2:Hopefully I see you here soon. I know I'll see you at Nationals, if not.
Speaker 3:Sounds good, buddy Be well.
