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Shotgun Sports USA
2024 Southeast Regional Recap: The good, the bad and the ugly
In today's episode, we take another look at the 2024 Southeast Regional held at the Forest City Gun Club in Savannah, Georgia. We look into various aspects of the event, including the targets and their levels of difficulty, the weather conditions, the course layouts, and any logistical backups encountered during the competition.
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Speaker 2:In this episode we're going to talk about the Southeast Regional. There are a lot of people that left there scratching their heads. We're going to talk with some of the guys involved with the tournament and find out their thoughts. Is it what they expected it to be, what they thought about the targets, the backups, and would they do anything different if they had to do it again? Welcome to Shotgun Sports USA.
Speaker 2:On the phone with me today, I have Zach Garettas and Chip Dekel, the two guys that set the main event at the Southeast Regional at Forest City Gun Club in Savannah, georgia. I also have Zach Keenbaum on, which set the Thursday prelim at the Southeast Regional, and I have one more, dominic Grossi, a shooter. We're going to all talk about the Southeast Regional. There's a little controversy about this shoot how hard the targets were, the backups and we're going to address it all on this episode. I think we need to call it the good, the bad and the ugly. Zach, what do you have to say about the tournament? I had a good time. The weather was great, the food was good, the targets were hard. What do you have to say?
Speaker 3:I would say that we dodged a bullet early on in the week. You know the tournament got started with feed task on Tuesday. Feed task targets were fairly decent Tuesday and Wednesdaynesday. Wednesday, the wind started picking up um it blew a storm in um started storming about, I don't know, one o'clock in the morning, 11, 12 o'clock in the morning on on uh thursday morning and it didn't really stop raining until 10 in the morning. So solid, solid, 10 hours of rain, nine or nine or 10 hours give or take. Um, there's estimated between. You know the.
Speaker 3:The area got between four and seven inches of rain and the ground took a pretty good hard hit. Um, for those of those of the folks that actually came to the shoot, they probably seen it. They seen some mud, but it dried out rather quick, believe it or not, by the end of the day, I think. Chip, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. We started all along the radio about a water truck, didn't we? Yeah, yeah, about 3 o'clock. So you know the grounds dried out fairly quick. Some areas stayed underwater for the remainder of the shoot, just some areas. It doesn't drain that well. That was kind of it didn't hinder the shoot at all, but we were kind of because we did a delay on Thursday. But we were kind of because we did a delay on Thursday we had to do two massive rotations of the Thursday prelim, which is Zach's course. We had to do two big rotations for that event to get it through through the day without having to do anything.
Speaker 3:Friday morning that event went pretty well. Friday morning that event went pretty well. We had some massive squats on there and it did take a long time. I think everybody expected backups on Thursday. We rolled into Friday. Friday ran pretty decent. There was a few backups here and there. You know normally and I think I think the good shooters that we have on here would agree that you know the Thursday and Friday prelim and most big major shoots is not only for the shooters to get ready as, but it is for the trappers as well. You know cause you're pulling these trappers from all over the place that may may not have as much experience. So the Thursday and Friday prelim is a good experience in introduction to the prelim and to the sport.
Speaker 3:Saturday we had some major problems as far as backups. In the main event, all of the management-wise, we were scratching our head trying to figure out what the heck was going on. All of the management-wise, we were scratching our head trying to figure out what the heck was going on. Rick Hemingway, myself, chip, just everybody management-wise trying to figure out what in the world was the backups. You know there's Zach says it there's a lot of other people that say it's three-day main, three-day main.
Speaker 3:But you know this club, we throw a lot of tournaments for the youth and we do maximize the rotations and we throw a lot of charity shoots that are way more than what we had out there on the course over the weekend and it doesn't take near as long with 100 birds. And we were just trying to figure it out. We finally figured out the issue. It took us a whole day, unfortunately, but we figured out the issue. Um, it took us a whole day, unfortunately, but we figured out the issue and made sunday a lot better for everybody what was that issue that you figured out?
Speaker 3:we had it. We we have always, always used our own employees to load traps for the main event in the prelims and we had some college kids that were helping us out, that were experienced, that had worked at a lot of other clubs in Georgia, and there was just a little bit of disconnect that we really wasn't getting that message relayed to us. So we were just thinking that you know, the courses were too crowded, the pairs are too slow, you know, four pairs stacked on top of one another, but they're all true pairs. But we weren't really pointing the finger that it was a loading issue and what was happening was the loaders were just keeping the machines full and doing whatever it took to keep the machines full, whether it's stopping a squad interrupting, touching that machine more than once or twice in a rotation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just just some. You know, like you said, it was just communication. You know that. And y'all got that fixed for the for Sunday, for sure. I mean it was. I never had an issue with a backup. Really, I mean I had a couple of backups but it wasn't that bad. So let's start with Thursday, because I I got there Thursday but I didn't shoot the Thursday prelim at Zach Keenbaum set. But the only person on this podcast right now that shot it was Dominic. So kind of give me a rundown, zach, I guess, of how you set it and Dominic, and what you thought of the targets. Were they too hard? Were they just right? I heard a lot of good things about it, but let me hear what you have to say.
Speaker 5:I said it. You know I've I've shot and taught at Forest City a lot, so I tried to set something that some of the local people hadn't seen in some of those spots, but that's kind of impossible. As much as we changed that course, but I just tried to keep everything visible, tried to really take in mind the background and keep the bird in a consistent background so people can see it. I definitely threw some speed and some edge, but none of the edge was past 25 yards so it was probably the least distance of any course of the week if I had to guess. But it was good. Good, I thought it was good.
Speaker 6:I don't see what Dominic says yeah, I mean, in most of these courses that you see that are on the more difficult side, you add about two of the four difficulty factors being speed, angle, distance and edge. When you get to three, you typically border on making a lot of people angry and I think zach did a good job of balancing. You know some speed with a little bit of distance, but no angle. Or you know angle with some edge, but it's like 20 yards. You know there was a good mix of everything. I think you shot just about every different sporting clays presentation you would want to see in a 15 station course. Um, there were, I mean, just due to the the nature of where some of those stations are, I mean a little bit of visibility depending on, you know, the lighting at a particular time of day, but that's true of probably any course you shoot.
Speaker 6:In the southeast that has a woodsy sort of environment to it, you know. Know there's, there's always going to be, trees and shadows that you're working through, and that's something that I think, in my opinion, is just an acquired skill more than anything, to learn how to shoot in those conditions, because you know, for a Texan like myself, we shoot in a lot of flat open spaces, trying to see things, strobed through shadows and, you know, hit highlights with the sun coming through the trees in certain spots. It changes the way that you think about those presentations. Again, I don't think that's. I don't think that makes it necessarily any more difficult. It just makes it different and it's a skill that a lot of people don't necessarily have, especially at an entry level. It different and it's a skill that a lot of people don't necessarily have, especially at an entry level. So if you haven't experienced that before, a moderate set of targets with that added in can make it, you know, probably five or six targets more difficult for an average shooter Zach.
Speaker 2:what was, what was HOA on that course and what did you expect?
Speaker 5:Brandon Powell shot a 96. I was expecting I was thinking of something around 95 96, so he, uh, he definitely hit that you know, uh, we'll get into friday the friday prelim, in the main in just a second.
Speaker 2:But uh, we talked about this. We've been talking about this for the past few days and the target difficulty there. I I had a problem with it, okay, but I don't shoot a lot or as much as I used to. I don't even practice. So when I go to a shoot, I expect myself not to shoot that well, but I still get mad at myself. You know what I'm saying. So I know I can hit this, but I didn't hit this, and I think a lot of people that are complaining about the targets being too hard or have mentioned the targets being too hard are probably in that same boat. Would y'all agree with that?
Speaker 6:Sure, it's worth keeping in mind that you know you have to.
Speaker 6:You have to understand that the difference between you know somebody that doesn't go out and practice versus the people that are doing this pretty frequently in their lives as a quote-unquote professional, that gap gets wider and wider every single day that we shoot.
Speaker 6:It's really hard to find a course that is set to be able to cater to somebody that hasn't shot in two years or just goes out and practices once every month or two, with a person that is shooting every week and shooting.
Speaker 6:You know the upper echelon of target setting on the championship tour on a regular basis. You know trying to find a middle ground there is getting harder and harder as time goes on, because people like Zach Keenbaum continue to get better and better and better. Brandon Powell is making everybody in the sport better and better and better, and the person that hasn't shot is still going to shoot exactly the way they would have shot, you know, know, 10 years ago versus now. So being able to find that balance again is going to be increasingly difficult as time goes on and at some point there's going to need to be a conversation about, you know, regional championships being for the masses or being for determining the best shooter in that region, and I mean, we're trying to find the best of both worlds, but again, it's just becoming a very hard task to do successfully.
Speaker 2:How does it, when you have a regional like this and you have, like Dominic was saying, the masses come to this because they want to come to a regional, but the targets are set stiff because we're trying to determine a regional champion? What does that do for the club? Or what does that do for business, as far as setting them too hard and several people getting aggravated with it?
Speaker 3:Well, I can honestly sit here and tell you that you know I knew that the targets were going to be a little bit stiffer, but you know, I'm, I'm, I've been a shooter as well for 13 or 14 years, maybe even 16, 16 years, and, um, you know, it has always kind of been me as a shooter. Know that, I know that when I'm going to a regional um, that the target's going to be a little bit more difficult than they were, like, let's say, the Seminole cup or or something like that. You know, um, because there is there's, there's a little bit more at stake, um, you know, you got people chasing all American points. You got people trying to make, make the team, the all state, all that other stuff. That's a big weight factor when you throw a regional or a world championships or a national championship.
Speaker 3:So the difference between you know, if we were to have our own standalone shoot, versus what we set for everybody to shoot, I mean, in all honesty, I think I really did tell Zach that I thought that his Thursday prelim was right, in line with, you know, if you think that the prelim is supposed to get you ready for the main event, zach's prelim did a really good job at that. It's just the thing of it. You know, there was enough separation where there were some targets that Zach didn't throw on that. But then Rick did throw them on Friday, um, and it was unscripted. Zach didn't know what we were throwing and Rick didn't know what what we were throwing as well.
Speaker 2:I shot the Friday prelim going into Saturday and Sunday. The targets just felt like they were harder, like they were bigger targets, like you know. It wasn't like they were fast or or age, it was just like they were way out there, wasn't like they were fast or or edge, it was just like they were way out there. And some of the true pairs none of them were bad, but some of them were like really big targets and I can remember the people that I was shooting, shooting with, they were just missing all of them.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's uh, I don't know. I mean it's, there's a fine line there, I guess. I mean you want to, you want to crown a regional champion and you want to have challenging targets for those guys that can shoot, but in the same breath, do you make it easier so that the guys that are there for fun have fun? I don't know. I'm glad I don't have a gun club, I'll tell you that Because I don't know what I would do. I don't know if I would just get mad at the people that were mad or if I would like.
Speaker 3:I mean it comes to a point where it's I don't know what I would do, you know Well, I mean I could, I could speak for myself and, and Chip, you can speak for yourself after I say this, but you know, I think that my intention wasn't to make people not have a good time. Um, there's a fine line as a target setter. I think that we were really close to having a really or set of targets that I felt like I would enjoy as a shooter. So for me personally, I don't like as much lollipop like that give me. You always hear the saying a give me station, a give me station, a give me station. But realistically, you can miss just as many targets on a gimme station. I mean, I remember just a few months ago at the seminal cup shooting the easy go prelim and there was a lot of gimme targets that they had set on that prelim and I've missed more of them than I did the harder stuff. Um, and and it was, you know, lack of focus had a lot of stuff going on on that Friday personally, but I like a course that's going to have my attention and I think that if there was not as many backups on Saturday, maybe the scores would have been a little bit different, but there was targets out there. I remember Anthony and I forget who I talked to about this, but Anthony made a comment to me at the US Open when it was at Backwoods a few years ago and he said the best thing that I can do to tell you how to shoot some of these targets on this specific course was just double-tap, the easy one on a true pair. You know, and I didn't, I didn't ever want it to get to be that way. You know, I think when played a lot, of, a lot of heartache in it. I'm not going to use it as an excuse because you know you do set targets based on the weather prediction or the wind prediction, which the wind prediction failed us tremendously.
Speaker 3:For this event. It's supposed to be a west-northwest wind and they had been calling that for over eight days. There was going to be a west-northwest wind at 12 miles an hour and it didn't take it very long, on Saturday morning, the first day of the main event, for it to be a south wind, which is, you know, total wrong direction. On some of the sides, of my course, it made the targets a little bit easier and on the other side it pushed them out, but it wasn't supposed to be a south wind. That's not an excuse. That's just an observation. That's what happened. It was supposed to be a west-northwest wind at 12 miles an hour on Saturday, all day Saturday and all day Sunday. That did not happen.
Speaker 2:Wasn't the wind blowing the same direction the whole day for the most part.
Speaker 3:The wind was blowing the same direction the whole day of Saturday. It was supposed to be a west-northwest wind.
Speaker 2:But everybody shot the main in the same wind. That's what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3:Everybody shot the wind. Everybody shot everything Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and and about the same amount of wind speed. You know give or take the direction, whether it was West or East or South, but we really didn't get a north wind, like we were supposed to, but it was all 12 miles an hour or more yeah, still had 90, 95, 96 a shot well, and justin, if I can chime in here.
Speaker 6:I mean I think there's a lot of people that are under the impression that hard and fun targets are mutually exclusive things. But there is absolutely no reason in my opinion that a very hard set of targets cannot also be entertaining. I mean, if I were to come all the way to Georgia from Texas, for example, and shoot the same kind of stuff that I shoot on the soft course on the course I shoot back home, I don't feel like that trip is worth it for me. I know a lot of people had similar experiences with, for example, the Western Regional this past year. Like I have no desire to shoot that type of target.
Speaker 6:If I'm traveling all this way, I want to shoot something. That's kind of going to test my ability and I don't know if it's just a general perception that if people aren't hitting targets they're not having a good time. I don't really ever think of it that way. I mean I honestly shot pretty poorly this weekend in my opinion of my own performance. I was not very happy with how I shot, but it was by far probably the most fun that I've had shooting a tournament in the past six months. And you know, again I get. People want to hit targets. They want to shoot up to the best of what they think their ability is. But there has to be some acknowledgement of the fact that you're traveling to an event to to see what you know that region of the country is like. In. The Southeast region is probably the toughest one to shoot in in the United States. You should not be going in there thinking that it's going to be a cakewalk by any means.
Speaker 2:I mean I, I'm saying I'm agreeing with you, uh, although I disagreed with you while I was shooting.
Speaker 3:Dominic, I think I think what you, what you said, kind of you know, think back.
Speaker 3:I I become manager here in 2013 and um you know, just the prior clubs that I had managed. I really didn't get to go out and see different sets of targets. I just had to go and set targets that I felt like my members or my customers would like to see. And when I got to Forest City, they kind of challenged me to go out to these nsca shoots and and shoot them, compete at them, work them and bring home a different set of of style um to this club to make our shooters here at the club better, um to get them more involved in nsca shoots, you know, and that kind of thing. And I think, to be honest with you, that helped me a whole lot. So what you said makes a lot of sense because you know, you take, I guarantee you that you can talk to a target center that you know in Texas and say, man, they threw this target and I would really love to see this target here so I can get better on it.
Speaker 6:Yeah, no, I completely agree. I mean, if I were to go up to, you know, my local gun club, which is greater Houston, and tell Mike Boyer, henry Velasquez, you know, hey, I I got to shoot a bunch of true pairs where I got to shoot the first bird in a spot that's slightly uncomfortable, which was a theme this past weekend, and it exposed a massive hole in my game that I really honestly was appreciative of, like, I mean, you know we're going into the World Championships here in May and June and you know we want to be as prepared as we possibly can. And shooting this weekend did a lot for me as far as telling me where I needed to improve. And it's shooting stuff in a position that's slightly uncomfortable and where I might not normally choose to shoot it if it were a single or a report pair. And that's what I'm going to look to shoot the next four or five times.
Speaker 6:I get out to practice at Greater Houston, whether it's them going out to set that particular type of pair for me or you know me just trying to, you know, make it based out of the stuff that we have at the club. But either way, you know, you know, to Zach's point. You know you're going out and trying to find stuff unique to a particular target setter or region or whatever flavor that you have for that given event and you know adapt your own shooting ability to be able to accommodate that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a Zach Keenbaum. I mentioned this to him yesterday. Team USA right, or? Or the U? S as a whole is right up there with the best in the whole world. Do you think, zach, that if they didn't shoot targets like we shoot at these regional tournaments or or the U? S opens and stuff like that, that they would be as good as they are?
Speaker 5:Definitely not. I think, this being a part of our championship tour and the process that picks our US teams, this tour is the best tour in the world. I mean, the Western Regional we shot last month was also very difficult, but very difficult in a different way. It was a lot bigger, a lot longer targets, but you're out in the desert and then you know, we come to the Southeast and we're shooting in the piney woods of Georgia. I mean, every one of these shoots is going to have a different flavor, a different flair, and that is what. That is what breeds the level of competitor that we have in America today, and this is all part of it.
Speaker 2:When you're talking about the youth some of the kids that don't shoot much, or some of the people that don't shoot much and came to the tournament and they shot very poorly. What do you say to them about that?
Speaker 5:I've told several students Sunday evening and since that they are a better shooter today than they were before that tournament started, whether they realize it or not. Um, it's not. I. I'm a big believer in in getting better at we're not good at, and learning and learning from the mistakes we make. And if they have an open mind, that's exactly what's going to happen after an event like this, after you go home and think about it and you actually go and work on work on that stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, we know, Rick always sets difficult stuff, or and I don't even know if it's difficult, it just tricks you. You know, on the Friday prelim who set the main?
Speaker 3:um, I set the, I set the late course chip set the woods course, All right.
Speaker 2:My opinion, Chip. He won the trophy for the most difficult. I don't know if y'all thought the same thing, but did y'all give him a trophy for that, Zach?
Speaker 4:I'll gladly post it on my shelf.
Speaker 2:But I'll tell you this where was the big tall tower? I mean big tall tower back up? I thought it was going to be a driven stand. Who set that? Was that you, chip? That was mine that was uh station nine awesome I love. I love that missed the whole first pair. Love the love station thank you.
Speaker 4:That was kind of my whole goal for the whole weekend was just to try and give everybody a new experience, not necessarily be hard targets, it was I wanted to make sure they, the birds, were visible. You could see them, they. I didn't put a whole lot of spring on everything, I just kind of I really beat them more with the technicality than I did anything else. So and my, my main goal was after people were done shooting was I wanted them to step back and be like what did I do this week and what did I do wrong? And I want them to fix it, get out and shoot more. It was mainly my goal behind that.
Speaker 2:But that stuff right there, I don't remember seeing that anywhere. Yeah, you know, I liked it because I thought it was different, like I thought it was going to come over my head and it didn't. I liked that kind of stuff. So you know, even though it was difficult, I still liked some of the stuff that I saw. Zach Garetta, let's go to your course. Uh, you said it. All right, what did you expect to expect it to to do, and what did it do, and what kind of feedback did you get from it?
Speaker 3:so you know, um, they're my general, my general opinion. As soon as I got to station 15, and chip and myself we always do this to each other as soon as we get done set, that's like all right. What do you think? What do you think the high is going to be? You know, and um, and I told him that I thought a 96 was going to win it. I thought a 96 would be the high and Anthony shot a 96 on it. We did the same thing with his course and you know we didn't factor in the wind and we thought a 95 would win it and 93 was the high.
Speaker 3:You know, looking back on it now, if you could just kind of rewind and do things over again, I think that on my course the reason why I got to 96 was because I chickened out and didn't throw an 85-foot lift on station 14. I didn't like the way that it was coming across the pond, I didn't like the positioning and with the wind playing a factor, it would have been really close to a shot fall problem if somebody chose to shoot it really early. But I wanted to try and make it work there and just with the prediction of the wind it was going to allow me to to throw it there and not have an issue. And then when we got there saturday morning and raised the lift, we had a, we had a backup pair ready to go. But when we got there, um, I just completely chickened out on it. I said we're not going to use, we're not going to use it, we're not going to do it. We thought about moving the lift to another station and I said let's just not do it, you know. So I think I reached my 96 because of not putting the lift in. Because if I had put the lift in, I feel like mine and Chip's courses would have probably been identical. It was going to be a difficult pair. Mine and Chip's courses would have probably been identical.
Speaker 3:Um, it wasn't a, it was a, it was going to be a difficult pair, um. But I mean, in all honesty, you know you can go, I'm sure Chip can walk through his course, but you know, zach and I we've talked the last few weeks about it and, um, you know it, it kind of almost where, where you start, you know you could it could be a mood setter on where you start. So like if you started on station seven, which was a true pair of just belly cross or income or slightly quartering in that. You see that in my opinion those are give me. Um, somebody told me that those weren't give-me's, but it's a 25-yard target showing full belly quartering towards you. That's a very easy target. You had all day in the world to shoot either one of them. If you started at that station you probably had a good pace.
Speaker 3:If you started on station 12 with a true pair of teal going up and away and quartering to the left, you didn't have time to shoot an easy pair before you started. That's what's still different about our game in America is we all don't start on the same station. We do for five stand, but we don't do it for fee tasks. We don't do it for sporting or super sporting or anything else that we do, unless you're shooting like a European sub gauge where you start on one. But you know that in my opinion, I think that plays a little bit of a factor in it too. So you know you go back to some of the comments that we've heard. You know there wasn't. We didn't get to, we didn't get to an easy station, we didn't get to an easy station. But if you factor in. You know 20 squads being on there with 15 station. Where is that? Easy station? Because somebody is going to get the short end of the stick, because they have to right. But you know.
Speaker 3:You go to station one. Station one was a pair of trap birds that were report. One was a middie, one was a standard. You go to station two. It was a scissor lift, two standard targets true pair out about 40 yards, showing full belly With a south wind probably made them just a little bit further than 40. With no wind they were about 35 yards. Get to station three had a middie peeling up going left and a standard target on edge. You get to station four. You had a Raboo true pair with a middie that climbed a big oak tree that was on the dirt berm.
Speaker 3:A lot of people said that that was their favorite station on the course. Some people said that they couldn't hit the Raboo or they thought the Raboo was too fast, but the Raboo was 10 yards in front of you, going away like a trap target and then peeling a little bit left to get to station six and there was a big Shondell there with a standard target. It's you know it. Just it didn't, it doesn't.
Speaker 3:I guess it doesn't matter where you start, there's going to be some difficulty in there. You know, for the longest time when I first started shooting I felt like I always started on the hardest station. But then I got over that. You know, some folks tend to practice, but for me here in the last five years I don't like to practice and Zach kind of gave me some advice on that and I kind of followed suit. But you know, we did have my course, had some give me targets or, and then on some of the report pairs, the one of those birds was easier than the other. You know, um, if I was to say the two give me stations, that I gave you um pair of rabbits which I thought were very fairly easy, um, there wasn't a whole lot you could do in that hole, but it was a pair of rabbits, you know, and and Joe, joe Fennesey told me he said I started on that station, I missed two birds there, um, and and Joe shouldn't have missed two birds there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I ran that one. There's another rabbit on somebody's course that went along the wood line. That was chips. That was a great rabbit, nice and slow. Yeah, that was Chips. I'm telling you, I missed it twice. My son hit it every time but I missed it twice and I thought I'll just kind of walk out shaking my head. But yeah, zach Keenbaum question when you go out, what was your scores on both courses?
Speaker 5:I shot 87 on the woods chips course and 91 on.
Speaker 2:Zach's course, the lake, okay, when you shoot in the eighties, say example for that course, what is your first thought? Is your first thought I shot terrible or those were hard? What's your first thought?
Speaker 5:I shot. I was very upset with myself because I was actually shooting very well. I was down seven birds with three stands to go. I felt like I was burning it down because I had gone through a lot of those hard ones and shot very well and I dropped three on 15, three, three on one and two on two. The math doesn't work on that, does it? I was down five. Yeah, I was down five.
Speaker 2:So I was just trying to figure out what your mental state is when you come off that course. Are you thinking like I just got beat up by myself and I'm going to be so far behind that it's not going to even be funny? Is that kind of the thought you have?
Speaker 5:I didn't really know. I knew 87 wouldn't be like way off and it wasn't after the first day, but at least on that course, um, I was just upset. I really misread, or and I made a bad plan on on that first the number 15, where I dropped the first three and then I was just kind of shell shocked and missed more. Um, the targets were just tough enough, um that if you weren't planning do putting a lot of thought into it before you got in there, you were gonna have a problem and and we've talked about the wind but for those that weren't there, this wind was. It was the most wind I've ever shot in it for a city, and that includes the 2018 hurricane regional that we had there um, the wind was crazy. I mean, there were gusts of over 35 miles an hour and that was like that Thursday, friday and Saturday.
Speaker 5:So when you're going out there, event after event, and you're making good moves and you're missing targets, it plays a definite factor in your confidence and I promise you there wasn't a soul on that property that's confidence wasn't a little shaken. And when your confidence is shaken and the winds keep blowing, you're doing stuff that you normally wouldn't do and it puts you just in. It can be a negative mindset for a lot of those folks and that only that just adds to it. So a tough course. Add in some really, really bad wind over multiple days and you get what we got. So what?
Speaker 2:I'm one of those folks. Do you think that if there was zero wind, how do you think the shoot would have played out?
Speaker 5:So I shot, I taught on Monday, all day Monday, and I shot both courses yesterday, both courses. It would have made a huge difference on every I don't care who you are, everybody's score If they could have shot that without wind it was. They were very different targets with, with with still conditions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the wind has a lot to play, has a lot to or has a big part in the performance from everybody. You know, that's what, no question yeah.
Speaker 6:So in my opinion I mean when I get a lot of wind I tend to start closer to a lot of birds and treat them almost more like rabbits. Because they're hopping around, they're doing things that require a little bit more aggressive move in a lot of circumstances, like if you're sitting out there in front of the bird a significant amount four or five, six feet or more, you know and that bird takes a dive. You got to move a lot to correct that at that point. But when you got a lot of distance and speed on these birds to begin with, you should be starting out pretty far in front. So when you combine those two things you can put yourself in a really bad spot really quick.
Speaker 6:It wasn't a good plan on my part to treat that course that way, because even though there was a lot of wind, I was starting far too close to all those birds and ended up shorting a lot. And again, you know I went out and shot the course again Monday and didn't have nearly as much of a problem. But my approach was very different. So the wind probably had a three to five bird swing on that course. In my opinion it could be more than that. More than that for some people for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, zach Grettis. What are some of the comments that you've heard from shooters about the tournament and what would you like to say?
Speaker 3:I've heard all kinds of different comments. I've heard comments that it's over the top. I've heard comments that may consider not coming back. I've heard comments that said that it was great. Like I said earlier, it wasn't our intention to make you guys or anybody there to have a negative feeling towards me as a target setter. Chip as a target setter Rick Hemingway, jake Spangler, eric Dorsey, any of those folks Mike Bichaud, when did play a factor, but it's not. It's not. I'm not even going to I will take the blame. I mean to be honest with you. I feel like if I would have given you one more give me station on my course, I wouldn't have heard anyone say on the late course that it was over the top. I think that if Chip would have given you two give me stations, nobody would have complained that his targets were over the top.
Speaker 3:The other part of it is and I happen to coach a very, very successful SCTP team the mindset of people this day and age is they're trying to compare themselves to a Zach or an Anthony or a Brandon or a Dominic or somebody that wins tournaments not necessarily places in the top five or ten, but somebody that wins tournaments. They compare themselves to them and they forget that they're shooting against people in their class. You know, I remember there was a shoot three years ago or two years ago that all of us here besides Chip were at, and I remember going up to Zach and saying I just threw it away on the first day of the main event and he said what did you shoot? And I said I shot a 58. And he said you shot a 58? And I said yeah, he said you're not off the hunt and I'm always the type of person that I'm not going to look at scores. You know I get eager not going to look at scores. You know I've changed my strategy a little bit. I look at scores, but that 58 was four targets off of what the highest score was shot on that course and it was. It was an even score with Zach. It was one score under Brandon.
Speaker 3:But in myself, in the moment, in the 30 minutes that it took me to go talk to Zach, I thought that I had just ruined my chances of competing amongst them for the rest of the weekend. Um, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a two or a three day main event holder, I'm more of a. I'm going to do good on one. So you know that was the only day that I held my ground with them. But sometimes you just got to take a step back and realize that you're not just you're not shooting against those guys. If you're a math class, you are, but if you're in a class double A, b, c, d or E, you know you're shooting against people that are what one haven't yet shot, or two. You haven't seen their score yet and you don't know how well they did. So when you're on that course and you start shooting bad, you gotta, you gotta grind it out. Um, and those courses were a grind out course.
Speaker 2:What do you? Zach came on, what do you think when you've you get a? Uh, I'm just going to example a, a, b or a a or b class shooter that goes out there thinking they should shoot 90s and they start getting mad at this at the course. Like they, like they will, like we've all done, what do you? I mean the shit. They shouldn't be shooting 90s. You know what I'm saying? That's kind of what I tell my son. Like you know, the guys that I've told you all this before, the guys that win, miss, they miss all the time. You don't very, you very seldom see somebody straight, of course, it's a game of missing.
Speaker 5:It's a game of learning how to learning how to manage failure, because we all fail, everybody does. Um, you just got to keep it in perspective for them and let them know. I know a lot of people talk, they, everyone has this 90 number in their head. If you go through the nsca, if you go through the shooters, there are not, there's not much more than than 10 people in the country that average 90 for the year if they're shooting the big, the championship tour. So what you shoot at home is not what you can expect to shoot on tour. There's, it's just managing expectations and and it takes time for people to understand the game and understand that there's a lot to it and there's, and people don't know what they don't know.
Speaker 5:They don't know the shots they don't know they, they're gonna see birds that they've never seen, and that's just part of it.
Speaker 3:It's just part of the journey you know I'm sitting here looking at scores and the the winner of ed of double a shot an 86 on chips course and a 77 on mine. The guy that was in second place tied his score shot an 86 on my course and a 77 on Chip's. I mean that's a nine target difference where each one of those guys didn't shoot the same score on either course. And then you come up to the top and that nine-target separation isn't there. Now Brad Sutton Jr shoots a 93 on Chip's course and an 86 on my course. I just so happened to be at the station when Sutton finished and he was kind of down and he said that he just leaked too many targets. I had a member that was shooting with him and he just said he shot really good today. He was leaking targets but he figured it out the next day and shot a high on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's something that you have to experience and I don't think y'all can answer this question. I don't think that it's going to change. As far as getting easier at these regional tournaments, I don't think that the clubs want to throw them easier and I don't think that the shooters that are going to shoot them want them thrown easier Is that correct.
Speaker 5:I know the top players, the guys that are actually going out there trying to win and make Team USA and all that Everyone that was at Forest City of those guys absolutely loved it. Everyone that was at Forest City of those guys absolutely loved it. In fact several Joe Pinchin, joe Finesi they thought it was the best tournament they'd been to in a long time. So it's just, you're never going to make everyone happy. But that's the big question. I mean, is this tour for the masses or is it? What's the goal? What's the goal? I mean, maybe the NSCA needs a mission statement for the masses, or is it what's the goal? What's the goal? I mean maybe the NSCA needs a mission statement for the tour, or even a target vetting committee. I don't know, but as these events get bigger, we may have to talk more about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean they get bigger because of the masses. You know it's the same 10 or 15 people like you're talking about it'll be at all these shoots. But if you can, I bet you zach garetta's won't put on a regional knowing 150 people gonna show up. You know what I'm saying, right? So I don't.
Speaker 6:I don't know the answer to that yeah, but the thing of it is is these regionals keep getting harder and more people are still coming. We still get more people every year. The attendance has been up on I mean maybe not from one shoot to the next, but if you take your five-year average or you know, whatever you want to call it we are climbing up in terms of participation every year.
Speaker 3:So either everybody out there is just a glutton for punishment or people are actually trying to get better I mean like in all honesty, I mean the goal wasn't to make people shoot a bad score, um, you know. But I mean there's, there's people here that compete. And then when I say here, they were people here last weekend that compete, that came to compete and you know, even though the targets were, you know, I mean, zach, be honest, how far? I mean I hate the word over the top but how far off were we as far as that perfect score? Would you say a pair of 95s, a pair of 96s, a pair of 97s? How far?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think if you can keep your top guys at 190, that's probably about the perfect difficulty and you weren't off by much. Like I said, the win played a much bigger factor than anyone wants to admit and I mean overall, I'd say the pace, some of the pace on some of the pairs. If they were just a report pair or um, what I would say is is a lot of the birds required you to shoot it just uncomfortably fast and there's, there's, there's a lot of people that can't do that, so they're shooting that bird slow and they're not getting a good shot at the second bird. But that's only a few stands in total. I don't think you guys were that far off. I think I think the weather was a factor and then multiple days of the same story is what just affected their planning and their mood and that that that was all part of it.
Speaker 5:But how beautiful is forest city? I mean, come on, do you have any people? Do you have any people coming up to me, people in town, all my I call them my kids, but younger college age guys that I've coached over the years that came over to savannah for the time and they're like we get it. We get why you moved here. This is beautiful. This is awesome. Um, the club was shined up bright. It, it, it was awesome.
Speaker 2:Zach that grass right there by the clubhouse. I wanted to go just like do one of those snow angels in the grass. You know what I'm saying. Like it was, like the grass was amazing. That's the first thing I said when I got there.
Speaker 6:Look at that grass so yeah, I'll put it to you this way, justin. I mean the masters was going on that same weekend. That's kind of what this was for. I mean, in my opinion, I felt like I was going to a really pristine club as far as the, the views and everything are spectacular. The club is immaculate in every regard from a view standpoint. And you know what, if I go play Augusta National Golf Club tomorrow, I don't give a crap if I shoot 91 or 136. I'm playing Augusta National and that's kind of the viewpoint I had that whole weekend. I mean I enjoyed the targets as well, but I mean I would have enjoyed shooting everything at 80 yards with those views.
Speaker 2:But yeah, man, I liked the course, the food, all the restaurants we talked about. You know I heard a lot of people coming up to us saying, hey, appreciate you telling us where to eat. You know, all those places were good and, uh, I had a good time, you know, just had a had a difficult time on the targets.
Speaker 3:You know, I mean this is, we hadn't really let Chip talk a whole lot. But you know, chip, I mean how long ago did we start getting ready for this?
Speaker 4:And how excited were you to have this shoot come here. Oh gosh, we started. We really started trying to prep for this back in like December, where it's just doing little things here and there. But we've been getting ready for it for a long time and as soon as Zach told me he was going to let me set a main event, I was ecstatic. I was ready. I mean, this is really my first big tournament setting a main event and I was excited for it. I wanted to do something different. I wanted to give people targets they'd never seen. I tried to run a rabbit up the side of a tree but I couldn't get it to work. Um, I just I was ready, I'm ready to do something new for people and I was hoping people would come out and just have a good time you can tell that there was effort put in the targets.
Speaker 2:I'll give you that. You can tell that there was thought put in the targets. For sure it's not like you didn't try. You know what I'm saying. He's he's.
Speaker 3:He set this rabbit up a tree, and I forget who it was. They said, uh, you need to go check it out, and so we go over there. What did? What did I tell you chip?
Speaker 4:um, I think you said about, I think you told me like this is a cool target, but you got to think that 720 people got to shoot this. You got to be consistent every single time.
Speaker 2:And you're going to blow the tree up too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that too. Yeah, they were going to destroy the tree. It'd be like the beaver that's behind Chip's house right now went over there and knocked on a tree about 40 yards away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, chip, you got any negative comments towards your course?
Speaker 4:You know, actually I've gotten a couple, but I've actually gotten a lot of positive comments, mainly from the lower class shooters that I know, and they they loved the course they shot. It felt like they shot very well, for how difficult it was. And they, uh, I have several of them coming back and shooting it again, yeah, and then, uh, after I got monday morning I got a phone call and they, uh, somebody from out of town wants me to come set their course at the same difficulty level level for them oh, here it starts that starting now well, I think everybody, I think I think as a whole, I think everybody had a good time.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people left beat up, but we've talked about why. That is the wind, the fact that it's a regional and the fact that they want to put on a good show. I mean that sums it up.
Speaker 3:If I could give anybody advice, it would be. You know, I've been in this sport since 2005. Started off as a trapper, you know, and we had trappers that weren't as well trained as they needed to be. I remember the first time that I ever trapped was in Texas for the Texas State 2005. It was my first trapping job. Right, we went to school in Southern Illinois, we hopped in a van, drove all the way to Texas, started pulling for a prelim for the Texas State, and I can tell you that I was nervous, as ever.
Speaker 3:You know a lot of these shooters and we are talking to a couple of professionals, but a lot of these shooters and we are talking to a couple professionals but a lot of these shooters kind of take that for granted. You know, if you have never trapped before and when I mean trapped I mean for a tournament there's just as many jitters in my body trapping for a tournament as there is when I'm actually leading off or shooting in a stand, because they're there not trying to mess up. We had a phone call from a guy. He said hey look, I'm not trying to get out of trapping, but I'm colorblind and I'm not going to be able to see the target when they're breaking them with this tree background. You're going to have to put me in a spot where there's a good solid blue background, where I've got some black-bellied targets or something, for me to actually see chips, because I can't see orange, I can't see green, you know. So you know there was some nerves there and I heard some shooters you know throughout the weekend say you know, some of the trappers weren't as good or whatever. But you know I consider myself an ambassador for the sport for 95% of the time and I don't have any problem going talking to a trapper anybody else's club and saying, hey look, I've been doing this a long time, I've been in your shoes. Before Settle down, here's what you need to do. This is a quicker way to do it here. This is how you record the master sheet and it doesn't affect my game at all.
Speaker 3:I heard some people saying that they argue with trappers for five or 10 minutes over one bird, and those of us that are on this call we know that that's not how you resolve an issue.
Speaker 3:The issue is if the trapper's being stubborn or if you're that adamant that you hit that target or your squadmate hit that target, get the course manager involved and it's not the scorekeeper's responsibility to get them over there If they're refusing. A lot of the big guys have everybody's phone number and can make a phone call and get somebody over there in a very, very quick time and then it makes everybody look good, not just on the club side, but it makes you look like you can handle something a little bit better and not let things get to you. I've had numerous situations where I've lost targets because I didn't look at my scorecard. It's cost me being on the podium before you know. Of course I was frustrated, but at the end of the day it was my fault. You know I didn't look at my score sheet and I walked away and I caught it three stations later or two stations later, and that's not how the game is played.
Speaker 2:You got to think all those guys could be mad, the shooters could be mad, and then they got to listen to it. Every time they come up, I mean, it's always good to be nice to them, you know yeah, and I mean, come on, let's be honest, we can't do it without them.
Speaker 3:You know, zach and dominic are at the texas state. If the trappers don't show up tomorrow, what's going to happen? I mean, everybody's going to have to step in and trap for each other, or or their shoot's going to get canceled. We can't do it without them. They're, they're the, they're they're the backbone of the shoot, you know. So you, you gotta, you gotta appreciate them and thank them for what they're doing, because they're taking time out of whatever they were doing to, to to make sure that you have a good experience and try not to mess up. And there's a lot of nerves that go in with that. And you know I'm not just talking about the Southeast regional I've heard stories and stories and stories of the umpteen other different shoots that I've been to, that the trapper screwed me out of this bird, or because they did this, I did this. But you know, at the end of the day, you're the one that called pull, you're the one that pulled the trigger and you're the one that either lost that target or hit that target.
Speaker 2:Zach, who were the trappers at the shoot.
Speaker 3:So majority of the trappers were from our Forest City Junior team, either parents or shooters on the team, and there was just a handful that weren't. So there was a lot of folks that knew how this game was played, just based off of experience. Or we threw a 21-Georgia State shoot. A lot of the faces were returning faces. I felt like we had a really good squad of trappers. We had some that you know were nervous or didn't know what they were doing. I was I forget who said it today, but I think Anthony said that there was a lot of people that knew him based off of the video the trapper training video there was a lot of trappers that would look up and be like you're that guy.
Speaker 3:But they were all local, they were all tied to the club or to the junior team in some form or fashion and I think they did a good job. I wish we wouldn't have had the delay on Saturday, because it's not embarrassing, it's just. We should have found that delay and made a fix on it quick, because it was a very, very easy fix. I fixed it in 15 minutes on Sunday morning.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you something else. That was pretty neat. I was shooting five stand and Mike Bichaw and John Kent rode up on the cart or whatever they were riding in and I spoke to them for a while, asked John how his son was doing and he said that Mitchell was coming out to the club. I never got. I never got to see him, but I know that Beretta did something big for Mitchell.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they did. Um, so thanks to Beretta. You know Mitchell was in a very, very bad car accident coming from the university of Alabama to shoot his mom, dad, shoot um at the Seminole cup and uh never made it there, spent uh nearly a month in the hospital. Um, he's in a wheelchair right now. Hopefully he'll be walking by the summertime. Um, but his gun, his gun got mangled. Just terribly bad. I mean, you can make a necklace out of it and that's about it. Beretta gave him a brand-new 694 to replace the gun that was mangled. It's pretty incredible. A lot of teary eyes that night and just a lot of fun emotions.
Speaker 5:It's a miracle he's here. I mean, that was as bad of an accident as you can get in.
Speaker 3:The cool thing about Mitchell is he actually showed up Friday evening and then he came back Saturday and he rode around with John and since he was going to ride around with John at the shoot, he brought his shooting bag to put on his pilas and it was the first time that he unzipped his shooting bag and his pila case was just absolutely destroyed from the accident Pulled the glasses out and everything was fine and wore them around and rode around with John.
Speaker 2:There you go, shout out to pila, right? Well, we need to get him a new case then, don't we?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's all he needs. Everything else was fine.
Speaker 2:Dominic's a good one to ask. Dominic, we touch everything.
Speaker 3:We didn't really get into. You know your son shooting bad and I know that we said that it wasn't the intention for your son to shoot bad, as it wasn't the intention for anybody else to shoot bad, but else to shoot bad. But I hope that they, when they, you know they leave the core, they, they left savannah and they started headed home and they got over the frustration that they didn't shoot the score that they had prepared themselves to shoot. Um, they go home and they challenge their local club to throw harder targets, as long as they have more than one course. You know, because you always have to keep everybody happy, um, zach knows this more than because you always have to keep everybody happy. Zach knows this more than anybody. But you have to keep everyone happy when it's.
Speaker 3:You know your normal day-to-day business and you know, challenge those guys to throw targets that are just a little bit uncomfortable for people because you can't get better by shooting. You know 25 yard targets all the time, or off speed stuff all the time you got to throw. You got to throw stuff that's a little bit testy and edgy. And I think that you know Zach said it a little bit that the Southeast they do do that. I know they do that in Texas.
Speaker 3:I know that there's clubs all around this country that do that. But if you're not a member of a member of a club that is willing to do it, just beg them, tell them to do it because it'll make you a lot better, it'll make you feel comfortable. Zach was out here grinding it out last night and said he figured it out and hopefully he does well this weekend. I know that here recently Zach has said you know as nicely as he could put it that he likes Chip's targets better than he does mine. He's said that you know these are the best set of targets this club's had since I've become a member here. You know, and it's been Chip's targets they probably are.
Speaker 5:You know what? Right now they are, there's no doubt. And anyone that wants to shoot chips course next week. I'll be back Monday. They can come take a look, there you go.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, get that ZK lesson in there.
Speaker 2:You know what my son?
Speaker 6:Hey Justin, your kid's a better shooter now than he was a week ago.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Yeah, go tell him that I've tried to tell him that. You know, what he's more mad about than anything is. He went out there and tried to catch a. There was about a six-foot carp on the side on the bank and he was out there trying to catch that carp. I said, son, can we go?
Speaker 1:And he's more mad at that.
Speaker 2:I think that he didn't catch that fish.
Speaker 3:There's there's some big fish in there. There's some big fish in there, I think. People saw him several times this week. I will, I will say, you know. So I did post on facebook that I I actually got to step away and shoot 20 gauge sub gauge with with my son, mason, who's nine, just turned nine back in february, started shooting for the juniors this year, and this is, you know, it's. It's pretty incredible, it's.
Speaker 3:You know, I've been waiting for this, yeah, when, when we formed the junior team in 2014, he wasn't even born yet, you know, and I was doing it, you know, in preparation for this and, and you know, he went through and shot eric's course and it was hard. Um, first station, I shot a four out of six. Mason shot a three and I was like, oh yeah, here we go, he's gonna shoot, good, you know. And then he zeroed the next two stations. He gets off of the third station and he's crying and I said what are you crying for? And he said I'm not good, dad. And I said, buddy, you just started. I, I, you know, I didn't shoot in the competition. I think this is what. What a lot of kids, you know, other than zach or or the, the true kids of this sport that are now adults or fathers. You know I didn't shoot my first registered shoot until 2008. So you know that was that wasn't long before he was born. So you know it's sometimes you just gotta, you gotta put in your time, you gotta understand things a little bit better. But you know it's sometimes you just gotta, you gotta put in your time, you gotta understand things a little bit better. But you know he ended up shooting an 11 and um, you know we finished the shoot on Sunday.
Speaker 3:We went out to the castaway, uh and, and had kind of a celebration dinner that it was all over and um, I was glad to see my family for the first time for more than 20 minutes, um, for for a solid week, and my sister, callie that was running registration with casey. She said, mason, you weren't the last place shooter in e-class and you should have saw his eyes like he just sprouted up. I wasn't last, you know, and you know sometimes it's not always about shooting that high score. You know, especially if you're a kid, you know I would. Um, I would love to shoot sporting clays with my dad. My dad's a good shot, but he, he doesn't shoot sporting clays, he, he has to work for a living and you know I will always remember that moment and kid if the kids are listening.
Speaker 2:You know, don't take that for granted, because one day, either your dad's not going to want to do it or he's not going to be around anymore, and that is a, that is a, uh, an experience and a and a moment that I will never, ever forget as a father, and I hope he doesn't either, and we have a score to build on, you know yep, you know, when I shoot and I take bryce pretty much everywhere with me now, maybe not all of them, but the majority I take him with him, take him with me, and I find myself paying attention to what he's doing and trying to talk to him, and and then when I get up there, I'm like, well, I don't even know what's going on, and that's fine with me.
Speaker 2:I'd rather him try to hit them and do well, and I don't care what I shoot, I really don't. So that's the thing that I've noticed about shooting with your son is that you'll with me. I just get up there to. I really want him to have a good time and I'll just figure out how to have a good time. You know what I'm saying yeah, absolutely 100.
Speaker 2:It's called sacrifice yeah, yeah, yeah, just let's. Let's go have a good time and I'll watch you. I always shoot behind him for some I guess, because the way they have us our names, I don't know what it is but I'm always shooting behind him. So I'm always paying to him, making sure he's got his shells, making sure he's got his ear plugs in, and this, that and another. The targets go out and I get up there and I'm like all right, can I have another show pair please?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, you're going to have. He likes Desi better than Zach.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we all do.
Speaker 3:Chip, you got anything you'd like to say? Would you like to apologize for throwing anything over the top, as we heard over the weekend?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean I apologize that the course was over the top. That wasn't my intentions. I just wanted to throw something new, like I said, and make sure everyone had a fun time. It obviously came around and come back to bite me, but I'll learn from it and next time you can expect some better, softer quality targets.
Speaker 5:Oh, we don't need to get too soft and I guarantee you there will be a new next time, I think.
Speaker 2:I think everyone wants to come back no apologies necessary on our own yeah, well, guys, thank you for spending some time with me and and talking about this and uh, for city, I mean, that's you can't get any better, really, you know. So I appreciate everybody coming on and everybody that went. We we appreciate you going and uh, hope to see you at the next regional where the targets may be softer.
Speaker 3:Everybody comes back. I hope you found something good in it. Um, we, we, we overcame storms. We, we had a great time. There was a lot of laughter. You probably left with a souvenir of an ant bite, you know I mean there was a lot of good came from the club. You know the staff. They worked their butt off. Chip has a great crew. We have a lot of members that helped out and I hope that you know someone noticed that someone or all of you noticed that you know it was. It was an army of either staff or membership that that pulled this thing off and we hope that you had a good time.
Speaker 2:Give us, give us another chance and um, um and come join us again guys, zach, dominic, y'all shoot good over there in texas, and and uh, zach and chip and savannah, y'all get some. I guess some rest or take it easy for a minute we'll try.
Speaker 5:Good luck, zach and dom thank you, thanks guys, thank y'all so.
Speaker 3:I'm not a fool. Outro Music.
