Shotgun Sports USA
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Shotgun Sports USA
Dennis Sprenger and Phil Pilla: Insights with the Pioneers of Performance Eyewear
In this episode, I'm joined by Dennis Sprenger, the proprietor of Clay Target Vision, along with Phil Pilla. Together, we have a comprehensive discussion on the standout lenses of 2023 and the reasons behind their popularity. If you find yourself still puzzled about which lenses suit different lighting conditions, prepare to engage your intellect. This episode is loaded with technical insights into these lenses, showcasing the remarkable fusion of technology and expertise in collaboration with Zeiss. The intricacies behind the lens technology never cease to amaze me.
Welcome to Shotgun Sports USA. Powered by Winchester Ammunition, the American legend. Listen to the best shotgun shooters from all over the world in every discipline Championship-winning coaches, gun clubs, target setters, vendors, as well as companies that make it all happen. Shotgun Sports USA is also driven by Beretta, the number one choice of champions, also brought to you by Briley Rick Hemingway's Permanent Trap Sales, cole Gunsmithing, clay Target Vision, castellani USA and Ultimate Shooting Accessories, soundgear, clay Shooter Supply and Falcon Strike. Thanks for listening and remember to visit us online at ShotgunSportsUSAcom, like us on Facebook and follow us on Instagram.
Justin:On this episode we have a discussion on the standout PILA lenses for 2023 and the reasons behind their popularity. If you find yourself still puzzled about which lenses suit different lighting conditions, we cover that also. This episode is loaded with information about all the new PILA products. Please welcome to the show Dennis Springer with Clay Target Vision and Phil PILA with PILA Performance Eyewear. Dennis.
Dennis/Phil:Yes, sir.
Justin:What's going on?
Dennis/Phil:Not much.
Justin:It is. It's the beginning of the year for shooting. I guess you'd say Big tournaments are coming up. Everybody needs to see and you got the answer to that.
Dennis/Phil:To tell you the truth, it feels like it never ended. You know we we've been going at it since the nationals and it's been busy. So we're looking forward to it, though my daughter Rebecca, and my son along, nick. They're going to Jack Link's. The old boy's going to stay at home and fill orders while, while they go, travel in the warm weather.
Justin:I'm telling you you need to go.
Dennis/Phil:I do need to go. I need to do a lot of things, justin. The thing is, this business, I mean, I think my passion is just taking over my life.
Justin:Let's talk about that for a second. You own Clay Target Vision and, for people who don't know who that is or what that is, is that the largest PILA dealer five or six times over in the whole world, and they sell PILA products and yeah, we do. You know, I think I wondered you and I first meet or talk, what was that three years ago?
Dennis/Phil:Yeah.
Justin:And I'd heard of you but I didn't. I think you've made like a big, like you've just taken over this, Like you've really stepped into the market here heavy in those past couple of years, and I see your name everywhere, just everywhere. What have you done to do that? Do you know? Do you know what you've done?
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, I think you know the answer is a lot, but it's one thing the answer isn't is Dennis. You know Dennis isn't the answer, but I think it's just a combination of hey, you know, this industry it's a great industry from, from the people in it. You know, in those, those relationships that you build, the pros that that that help help me, and it's a combination of everything. And you know we really focus on customer service. Like you know, a year ago it was like me, with my wife helping me, but now we have four, four employees working on this and and we're busy, but my wife blames.
Dennis/Phil:You know that I got to do everything 150 percent, that I don't need to be this busy, but if I have opportunities and I'm just telling you, justin, I talk to people every day and I'm telling you there's, there's a lot of opportunities and a lot of people need help. We're helping people and then our customers are probably our best. You know, if we do a good job, those customers go out of their way to let their buddy know what this at at the club, or let you know, let people know that I took care of them and it just it's snowballing, that's for sure.
Justin:Yeah, did you ever think it would be as busy as it is?
Dennis/Phil:Never. I can still remember calling Tom at Pila you know he's my salesman and I said told Tom, it was COVID and we talked about our plans. I said what do you think? Do you think you think this would work? And it definitely. You know, it's just, it's, it's definitely a blessing. I mean, I just like I said, there's so many people that are involved and so many people and friends and partners make this happen.
Justin:I think your business is primarily internet based, correct?
Dennis/Phil:I would, I'd want, I wish that was the answer. It is, but I am not lying. My daughter and myself are on the phone all day, all day. I mean there's we get, we take calls all day. I mean, and you know, I basically just was talking to somebody, said I got to call you back, you know. But there's people want, want information, want help, and I guess we're giving it to them and that's part of the success. But you know, my wife worked at Harley for 40 years. She worked at Briggs and Stratton for three. She's retired. I think she wants to go back to work because I keep her busier here at home now.
Justin:Yeah, yeah.
Dennis/Phil:All right so.
Justin:I want to talk about. You talked about your people helping you and sending your business and stuff this, and that You've developed a, a pro team, a Clay Target Vision Pro team and then you've also got another side of that. What is what do you call that team?
Dennis/Phil:Well, we have like what we call associates and things like that. You know, you know our pro team, you know. You know Zach and Desi. You know Brandon Powell, karen and Gavin, mike Wilgus, you know, and. But then there's also, you know, there's a lot of other people that that help me and I help them. You know that are pros and you know they might not ask for a lot but they still call me and I still help them. You know, but you know it's, it's, it's nothing for me on a Monday morning, you know, to have somebody call, call me and say, hey, I just had a lesson with Brandon Powell and he told me to give you a call, or same thing like with Zach and Desi. You know they they're, they're so kind and they help me. You know so much. You know. You look up, nice, in the dictionary and there's a picture of Desi, you know. So that that helps. You know, karen, karen Miles just shot her first hundred, you know, and first thing you know Gavin does is, you know, you know, thanks me. You know what I mean. So that's, you know, and you know that. That, that's, that's what I think is.
Dennis/Phil:You know, I'm very thankful for everybody in this industry but then it goes to. You know even the people like when I go to the nationals, I'm in Wisconsin, I got to go to Texas. You know Jason from Zoli, let's me ship his stuff to him. You know Jim Greenwood, you know has my tent. You know I left the nationals and I called Jim Greenwood he's. If you know Jim Greenwood, he's pretty busy at the nationals. Five minutes later his brother is down by me grabbing my tent and and you know, and and you know people are helping me take the tent down and it's just. You know Bear Pelt. You know Eric and Heather. You know they have been so good to me. And you know Donnie from from Winchester, it just everywhere you look there's, there's somebody in this industry that you know I really cherish their. You know the partnerships and relationships I've built and and that's part of the success and so, like I said, it's not me.
Justin:Yeah, it's a team, it's all teamwork and that's you know. I brought that, the teams up that you have and you've selected some of the best in the whole industry shooters that is to be on your team and you have several, not just the three or four you name. You have several people that are on.
Dennis/Phil:You know Connor, connor Daniels, you know the top, you know one of the top shooter shooters in the country. You know things like that. You know and, and you know we were at the nationals and you know his mom said can I get you all anything? And I said I just could go for a Diet Coke. Well, five minutes later I got a cooler full of Diet Coke and ice. You know what I mean. That stuff like that just I mean tears, you know. I just you know the kindness by everybody, you know is just unbelievable.
Justin:Yeah, so when you you're looking for this, you don't want the shooters to do anything for you. You just want them to send you business, and that's what it's all about. Right? Is sending you business? Well, you might have, you know, you might have bit off more than you can chew. It sounds like it.
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, it's. You know, like I said, we're a pretty dynamic company. Let's just say there's another family meeting on Friday night. You know where we have to make, you know. You know I, I still like to get back to everybody. And am I perfect? No, and if I forget something I'll make it right though, and you know. But I still enjoy helping people and I got a passion for the sport. I love to shoot Justin. I just can't, I don't have time.
Justin:All right. So I didn't know if you said you just can't because you haven't perfected the move or if you just don't have time for it.
Dennis/Phil:We're not talking about the hybrid move today. You know that's something that you know. I don't want Zach calling me tomorrow and asking me what the hybrid move is or something right now. So but let's just say, I'm shooting really, really good right now. My, my move, I'm seeing the target. Well, I'm seeing it late, I'm watching a break, but that's only 30% of the time, because I'm just not shooting. I got to work on that other 70%.
Justin:But what's cool for everyone listening. The hybrid move incorporates all the techniques at one time. Is that right?
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, there's, there's a sustained lead in it, but it's just behind the target, you know.
Justin:Yeah.
Dennis/Phil:And there's, there's a bump in it, there's a swing through in it, and then there's a pull away too. But it you know, maybe that's the reason I'm only doing a perfect 30% of the time. It's too much.
Justin:Yeah, yeah, you need to. You need to cut some of that out. I mean, you can't you can't, you can't put all that together.
Dennis/Phil:You know what. You know what it goes to comes down to. I tell this to everybody. You know, when you're not shooting, well, just stop thinking and look at the target. The gun just goes there. So, and that's what that's, that's the thing, that that's what I help people with every day. Of this visual aspect and when I tell you this, there is just every. I just talked to a guy on the phone today and he said, hey, what three lenses should I get? And I'm like, okay, well, that's a little hard to answer right now. Do you shoot at night and do you shoot it during the day? And I start asking a bunch of questions and just at the end he goes oh, and, by the way, I'm, I'm, I'm colorblind. You know that's what I do, you know it's like well, that would have been good to know before we started here.
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, but you know, I think you know I spent my whole day working on. You know people call me all the time and they say, dennis, so confusing. And I always go back to the simple basics of okay, there's two things for managing light and color. And light is the number. Just, you know the number has to do with light percentage. So remember that the number doesn't, you know, it's just not a number. If it's 98, it means 98% light transmission. If it's 9.5, it's a sun lens, 9.5% light transmission.
Dennis/Phil:So I know that's a little basic to a lot of people that are listening to this, but I just had somebody order a three lens kit the other day and he ordered like a 50, a 52 and a 55. And then he called me and he said, hey, I ordered three lenses. You know he didn't and I don't call every customer and say, hey, are you sure you want this? But you know he caught it and said you know I need a sun lens here and so you know that's where. When I say I'm on the phone all day, that's what I'm doing, just helping people, yeah.
Justin:He probably got I don't know who that was, but he probably got those lenses in and thought, wow, is there any difference here?
Dennis/Phil:You know I mean yeah, yeah, and so that's, that's, that's the big thing and and and I really work a lot with this color deficiency things. You know we went to the grand this year and you know I picked up the Bartholome brothers. You know Matt and Foster. You know to the best trap shooters in the country and you know Matt Matt's colorblind, so he he got our new colorblind lenses. And you know his brother, foster, is total opposite. If he wears reds it looks white. But you know, just spending the time meeting them at the grand and having those two trap shooters on our team, you know, and and these guys have been around a long time, but I felt good being able to help them. Put it that way, yeah.
Justin:Those are some good trap shooters.
Dennis/Phil:I don't know if there's any butter.
Justin:So you went to the grand. How much different is that dealing with trap shooters versus sporting clay shooters?
Dennis/Phil:We went to the grand and and I'll tell you we didn't sell as much as we did when we went to the national and sort of things like that, but the month after the grand was probably. You know we met a lot of people. You know when I talk about this industry and things like that, and you know we know we want the trap shooters. You know we want and it's become more and more of our business, which the trip was worth it and and yeah, it's, it's. Sometimes it's a little different clientele, because there's always a little trap club down the road and but you know what, I respect that, though, and and and I respect somebody that you know it doesn't have, you know, the money to do a sporting clay tour and shoots locally, and once a year they go to the grand. I mean I think that's great and and those, I want to help those people as much as I want to help Zach.
Justin:Yeah Well, Zach needs some help. You need to help him a little more.
Dennis/Phil:You know, yes, sir, but yeah, no, it was. It was definitely worth the trip, and you know. But but then again, too, I had so many trap shooters that said, you know, all I wear is yellow, and yellow is a really good lens, justin, for one in low light, but, you know, if you were yellow in the sun, it burns your retina and it actually hinders your depth perception. So these are the things that we talk about all day and and even, like you know, last year, phil probably did the best job ever with introducing these new lenses and I think by far that was a big part of our business too, by you know, he worked so hard on this product and it just keeps getting better and better. And you know, my relationship with him is something that I value and and put it this way, I mean he's, he's always there for me. You know I can call him three, four times a day and he's got the answer.
Justin:Yeah Well, I don't know what's calling now. You want to?
Dennis/Phil:He'll answer if I call him. I bet he will.
Justin:Hell, you better answer if you call him.
Dennis/Phil:And we talked about. You know. I asked what do you, what do we have for shooting against a shot curtain, like at the Cardinal Center? No, I think the shot curtains down. But you know, you and I talked about Olympic trap and shot curtain and the lens you came out with. You know what is that. You know red hot chili pepper and you know, you know that I think you know in 2022, that by far was the hottest lens. It still is, I think, for trap shooters and things like that.
Dennis/Phil:But, like, can you explain, like, how you came about that lens and what makes that lens so special? And you know, especially the way you tried. You know you designed it and you know I know a lot of sporting clay shooters shoot it. And the thing that I think makes it special, it is a double X. What people don't understand is, even though it says red hot chili pepper, it's actually a double accelerant of orange. But even with all that accelerant, the balance is just unbelievable. I get guys to tell me they shoot nothing. You know they love it for black targets, but go ahead.
Speaker 4:Well, you know I mean. The reality is the the red hot chili pepper lens the name of it. If you really want to know what was happening. I was a big fan of the chili peppers way back and we put all our lenses in microfiber bags and my real desire was when we launched this lens because it really was a hot lens, in my opinion when we were bench testing everything, I wanted to package the thing in a tube sock and send it out as the microfiber bag and a bunch of people were like, dude, that's probably not a good idea. I was like this is the greatest marketing idea ever. I'm gonna put it in a tube sock, everyone will get a good chuckle out of it.
Speaker 4:But it was just one of those things that the lens itself got the name off of the spicy nature of the color profile. And what I mean by that is we've been really concentrating on a lot of filters over the last couple of years to really spike very specific wavelengths in the visual spectrum that relate to target orange, but do it in a manner that really allows for an enhanced level of performance. And that's a mix of not only what we're doing to identify very specific wavelengths, but we're also mixing it with different levels of coding technology and enhancing those particular opportunities to focus in on those wavelengths. And what does that all mean? That really means that what we're doing is we're highlighting specificity and that is really where we're starting to concentrate a lot more in finding success. In the red hot chili pepper Specifically, we wanted a very spicy, hot acceleration of target orange. Even though we're calling it a red lens, we splinter in some level of red to enhance the contrast in the lens. So the balance between enhancing contrast and also accelerating that particular wavelength of light in the orange piece of the visual spectrum, you get a really nice blend. The interesting thing that we've come to know really through trial and error over the last let's just say the last probably eight to 10 years, is there's a level of restraint. That is, you know, we've certainly talked about it on your show so that you don't want to over crank certain elements of the visual spectrum because then things become fuzzy and you can really make them pop. But the level of clarity, definition and crystal sort of you know picture of your visual sight picture becomes compromised. And the nice thing about the red hot chili pepper lenses we have a level of intensity, where the definition is just exemplary. I mean, it just is one of those lenses that you put it on and you get that wow factor. And it's one of those demonstrable iterations of how you can really have some success by playing the game, so to speak, when we're doing the science.
Speaker 4:And I don't really think that we've ever talked about the process in which we go through lens generation with Zeiss and the engineering team at Zeiss. We're very blessed to have the relationship with Zeiss where we have very, I think, patient engineers on the other side, because you can go all day long and say, oh yeah, we're going to just dial in this specific wavelength of light and it should work. But it really doesn't work out that way and it's a very iterative process. So we go through multiple iterations of actually pushing material through and getting a physical lens sample to see the performance of the lens in real time, so to speak, where a lot of different companies out there either use a very flattened curve in terms of give me a red lens or an orange lens or a yellow lens and bang outcomes. You know, I would like it to match this particular Pantone color and it really doesn't perform.
Speaker 4:We go through this process and, no kidding, we'll probably go through 1215 different iterations of pushing material, which is a very costly process in terms of making our lens technology, and we actually put it into a real world test when we push this material. And every time that we go through this we try and tweak certain things, because it's a process in which I personally want to bless that we've really pushed the level of efficacy of the lenses to the max and, you know, one of the things that I think really makes us special is we're really never satisfied with what we put out there. We got halfway through the process with the Red Hot Chili Pepper and I remember Colin Dennis, you know, halfway through the process and I said I have a lens that's coming and damn, it is like ridiculously good.
Speaker 4:And it just got better and better and it got to the point where I was like this thing is like you know a chili pepper, it just hits you. It's got unbelievable sort of you know punch and that's really where the name of the product came from. And then we came up with this whole marketing you know sort of play, which I wish we had done. But it's really one of those lenses that pushes to the limit in a medium lighting condition setting, because you really have to use the lens, I think, within, and there's people that use it in full sun and whatnot. But I find the lens, as it was architected, to be a really efficient lens in medium lighting conditions because it has just such a wonderful pop of color and it is restrained in giving you a level of definition and contrast that a lot of the lenses just don't perform in that particular capacity. So for me, that particular lens is definitely one of the ones that is is really very, very well balanced in terms of being able to push it to the limit without over pushing it, to the point where you start getting fuzzy.
Speaker 4:And then we change the formulations when we're kind of looking at that color profile and you get like what we did with the pomegranate lens, where we transitioned into a 36 profile and then we transitioned from there into a 22 profile in the 22 CIMX. So we're constantly trying to elevate and change the filter curves to allow the eye to really recognize the level of efficacy that we're trying to put out there, which every year we bring something new to the table to try and enhance that particular offering. The red hot chili pepper is one of those that right out of the box we were like this thing is just, it kicks ass and that's that's really. You know what we've done with that profile. But if you try to look at really what we're doing from the light transmit and standpoint, you can really trace how we've over. You know, since its introduction Evolved with some of the other lenses that are in our portfolio.
Dennis/Phil:Tell, tell me if I'm wrong here, phil, but I kind of think that the red hot chili pepper was kind of like the gateway to like our 2023 lenses that I think were probably Some of the best lenses you know you've ever come out with. But I think that that lens you know what you learned on that lens I think you transferred over into some of these new lenses and you know one thing I just want to let people know is that the red hot chili pepper, even though you know we, we talked, you know, about light transmission and it doesn't have that number. It is a 54% light transmission. But the other thing that I just kind of want to talk about before we jump into 2023 lenses, phil, is you know, you know the retinas in our eyes, you know, have two different types of cells, right, the rods and the cones, and you know the rods are, you know, responsible for the light and the dark, so the number. But the cones, you know they detect the different colors and I'm, you know I spend all day talking to people.
Dennis/Phil:You know about that, because I tell people, you know I need you to do your homework and you know for me, example, a red hot chili pepper works, but Oranges really don't work for me and but if you like, max oranges and oranges, I think it's probably the best. You know, one of the best orange lenses we have. Can you just explain that a little bit? As far as you know, I don't want everybody to think that the red hot chili pepper is the best lens out there it, but you know everybody's rods and cones are different and I I spend all day talking to people about this and and and you know it's. It's a great lens, but there's a reason we have so many lenses.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, it's a hundred percent correct. Everyone, you know, reacts slightly different to different color filters. I Always have to laugh when you know companies come out with you know proposals that there's one size fits all in terms of you know a filter or you know these three lenses will, you know, work and you don't need anything else or whatever. But you know, I mean, the reality is we've Arcticulated, probably in the last four years, a hundred and fifty different filters and there's a reason for that one because performance is king and for us, being able to bring Technology to the table that allows athletes to perform at their highest is what we're all about. And you know, I can tell you, you know some athletes on the Olympic stage use one lens versus another and they have very similar, you know color profiles, but they are very different. So when you talk about our orange lenses and that kind of Filter, the reality is we have both Transmittance value and we have color profile value. And then we mix in the articulation of how we want the coatings to Interact with what we're doing in mass. And when I say in mass is Really what are we doing with the color inside the lens versus what we're doing to manipulate the color profile on the lens and in mass. Right now we have Some fantastic learning that Dennis correctly points out. That comes from sort of the iteration that we did with the red hot chili pepper lens. But the you know, 55 PWC, more of a peach lens, has a little bit of orange in it and as you start to bleed more red into it, you start bleeding into, you know, lenses like the red hot chili pepper or the pomegranate 36 CPOM or the 22 CIMX, or you know one of my favorite lens, the 28 CR. That's definitely more red than orange. But we have an orange family in terms of the CIMX lenses when we have a 64 of 44 and the 22 CIMX, but sitting right dead smack in the middle of it being more orange is something that we came out with in 23, which was the blood orange lens, which is this 56, and that's a lens that has less red in it. But that's one where we play with five or six lenses in that medium lighting condition. You know value. You're gonna have five different shooters that are gonna gravitate to one, or you know a different one of those particular lenses and For me, as the guy that's engineering and really articulating these particular color of science with our Zeiss partners.
Speaker 4:It's really important that we provide that kind of level of differentiation, however minimal it is. And you know we work with guys and gals all over the world where you know I'll give you a perfect example from a 54 to a 52 and someone has a 2% different transmittance value and they're like damn, that lens is spot on for me. The one who's 2% different doesn't work for me. But the profiles are very similar and and I find that to be fascinating, because every athlete, as you point out, is wired differently and People that use our lens technology the reason we have so many lenses that bump up against one another is that slight difference provides a massive impact in terms of the performance of the, the lens for that particular individual. So we're constantly trying to manipulate the filters and the profiles of what we're putting in the marketplace and marry that with the transmittance value.
Speaker 4:But there was kind of this perfect storm that came together between 22 and 23 where we started really finding not only what we were Doing with the color science and the in mass pigmentation that we were, you know, developing with Zeiss, but then we started really getting our ice coatings and the chroma shift and the infrared platform. When we layered that on top of it, it was just like this intensity. It was kind of, you know, the the chef in in the lab Was really bringing all of these particular elements together to make a perfect recipe for, you know, the, the base level of what we were putting into the marketplace. So the, the orange family of lenses, I think we have just an absolutely killer lineup of lenses right now and we will continue to evolve and bring new ones to the table and whatnot. But I do believe that the, the current family of lenses, that really spans From the, what we call the low-quat lens and you know, I know a lot of people out there don't know what a low-quat fruit is but you know that's got more yellow in it than it does you know anything else, but it still has a hint of orange.
Speaker 4:We're constantly kind of like bleeding in and out these particular you know color profiles as it relates to orange and red, because those obviously have a demonstrable impact on the level of amplification, on how we see Target orange, and one of the things that's most important for us is the right mix to still get the level of clarity and definition, because, you know we're kind of blessed to have guys like you know, george Digweed or Anthony Matarice, and you know a whole host that I could probably spend the next 20 minutes going down a laundry list of individuals that were blessed to work with.
Speaker 4:But any, any professional you ever work with is always talking about you know, you being able to actually see the bird, really focus on the bird, and the definition is one thing that we never lose sight of, because you really can screw that up with having a Misrepresentation of the color that you're trying to manipulate to get that level of precision, which is a beautiful balancing act between definition and color Accentuation and being able to sort of marry that together is both a science and an art. And our scientists back in Italy at Zeiss Having worked with Zeiss, now coming up on 15 years in our relationship, they really have it dialed in over there.
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, you know, like we talked about. You know for 23 I think, like the 23 lenses. When you talk about you know words that come to my mind. You know very crisp, very vivid, you know like they were. Just you know that 36 C pom.
Dennis/Phil:When I went to the Grand and you know I always take note when I go to a shoot and I sell a lot of one lens that means people look through it and liked it. So when I went to the Grand, I sold more 36 C poms and when you first started to do that 36 C pom, you were trying to just fill a gap between the 44 cmx and the 24 cmx at that time. And then how did you end up Adding a little purple to it? And it is a special lens. First, you know there's, you know it's become a workhorse lens for a lot of my customers. But I think for 2023 I probably sold more 36 C poms and it's just like you said, every time we add red, we're, you know we're adding contrast and so it's a combination there's red, there's orange, there's purple in it. But what makes that lens so special, do you think?
Speaker 4:Yeah, one of the things that you correctly point out and it's it's like I said earlier in the in the conversation, the iterative process of birthing a lens is is playing with the architecture of what we're doing across the entire visual spectrum. And we do play that way where we introduce bleed in a little bit purple, bleed out, bleed in a little more red, bleed out. And the thing that was interesting about the pomegranate lens which is why we called it pomegranate, because of you know the purple nature of when you cut a pomegranate open, the in that hue Was the fact that the purple really helped retard green in that color profile, even though we're not marketing it as a green neutralizing type of element. But just that slight reduction in the green piece of the profile for that lens allowed the other pieces of the spectrum to actually sort of shine through. And that's really how we kind of like stumbled on wow, if we bled a little bit more of that in, it would really work well. So, yeah, we kind of were looking to split the goalposts between the two lenses In the full Sun, medium light and come up with something in between.
Speaker 4:And it's, and you know, one of the things that I think you know we're doing better on is. We're really listening to what are athletes and customers are really looking for, because we have such a large portfolio of filters, the, the, the. The feedback that we get is well, we wish, oh man, we really love this lens, we wish we could like slide it in over here so that we had, you know, a better performing lens that works for me. Right, and that's really how we do our product planning is is using the feedback we get from from the marketplace On really what our athletes and customers and dealers and guys like Dennis are out there and they're like well, shit, you know, I would love this to happen. Can we make this happen? And that's that's really one of the whole motion I think of. What we concentrate on is we're constantly trying to bring stuff to the market that our customers are looking for, and Occasionally we get really lucky on finding a sweet spot, and the 36 CPOM is one of those that.
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, we put a sweet spot.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a sweet spot for sure. I'm pretty excited that you know that Dennis brings up the 2023 lenses. We call it the fruit sort of selection, because all those particular lenses had you know, fruit names to them which we love putting out there, because it immediately identifies, you know kind of really what the color profile is and it's become kind of a signature for us. But those particular lenses all benefited from a coalescing of thinking from really 2019 to 2023, when we first introduced the chroma shift platform and then started working with the infrared coatings, and that sort of marriage really allowed us to start parsing the color filters and Enhance them. And now we've gotten to the point where the technology that Zeiss is is is providing and we're working on with them is just phenomenal. It's just absolutely phenomenal.
Dennis/Phil:Let's. Let's touch on the other ones real quick here. You know we always talked about our. You know, ed's, you know kind of what the company was started on 20 years ago the enhanced definition, the Ambers, and I know that you know you used to have a 58.
Dennis/Phil:You know Ed and a 50 CED and and then this year you came out with that 50 CIS Strawberry and I get so many people that say to me, no, I don't want a red lens. And I try to tell them cosmetically it looks red but it's like an ED. And I think am I right when I say Wendell wore that lens to when the US open.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's 100% correct. I mean, that's one of Wendell's favorite lenses. You know the the nice thing about that is what? One thing that I will point out, because you actually bring up a good point that Cosmetically, when you look at a lens, it's not 100% accurate as to what that lens is going to deliver because of the coding science that's going on the lens and the coding science that's going on the lens has a cosmetic effect cool. That also has a very explicit performance benefit to the tuning of what we're doing in mass.
Speaker 4:So when someone takes a look at a lens and they're like, well, you know, that's not for me because it's got this red cosmetic to it, you really have to evaluate our lenses. If you're looking to enhance what you have or what you're attempting to get from us is look through the lens, because the lens is really performed differently for different people. But also the lens itself may not have that performance of color profile that is being telegraphed by the cosmetic. So the 50CIS is, in my opinion, one of the top five lenses we've ever articulated and the reason is because it's really super balanced. It has Like an ED, like an 18CED lens. You know when you talk to the professionals that around the world Anthony Zach.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you go down 150, 200 worthy shooters and they all love the fact of the delivery of a balanced lens. So you know, just to give you insight, fast forward here. The 50CIS, beautiful balanced lens, has a pop to it for that medium lighting condition, balanced in terms of giving you the same kind of delivery as our enhanced definition lenses. And when we say enhanced definition it's kind of like we buoy the entire ocean to float the boat higher. We're not over cranking one element of the visual spectrum over another. But the ED lenses, you know, going all the way from the 9.5 to the 18 to the 26. And then we've historically had the 50CED and then before that, the 50ED. We've had really a big influx in terms of people wanting the enhanced definition platform to go into a higher transmittance level, which we are bringing that particular lens in 2024, which I'm really excited about. But that particular 50CIS, the strawberry lens, is definitely one that benefits from that same level of thinking.
Speaker 4:A good hunting lens too, no doubt. No doubt. You know, and you know, you know, for people that are flush and pheasant and doing a lot of small game type stuff, we sell a ton of those to. You know, avid upland hunters.
Dennis/Phil:I mean, it's just Rooster rooster. You know it's a lot easier with a 50CIS on you know, when you're calling birds out you know another lens real quick that you know the 58CIP you know, persimmon, I'm like, oh, another persimmon.
Dennis/Phil:And you know I always tell people why I love. You know I like red lenses. You know they just my eyes, just it just accelerates orange. But I told you, I said, phil, why is it when I put on a yellow, orange, persimmon, that 58CIP, that my eyes go? Huh, I like that. You know, On a gray day it has that. You know, wakes my eyes up a little bit with that yellow in there. But that orange and yellow and oranges don't work for me. But I put that 58CIP on and my eyes are going this is nice, why is that?
Speaker 4:The persimmon lens is one that we've articulated over the years and it's just gotten better and better and better. And you correctly point out the utility of the lens in a flat-earred type lighting situation. You're calling it gray, overcast, those kinds of things I like to call the 58CIP, and then bleeding it even to the 64CIP, which is our banana lens. You're talking we call them a light bulb lens. It's a wake up the eye. It's got a very aggressive, you know, enhancement of what I would say the perceptive value of light now is raised because it becomes much brighter the sight picture when you put the lens on. And when the lens is off, I mean, things are dark, but when you put this lens on we turn the light on and that's the kind of lens that is For you personally.
Speaker 4:That particular color profile with a bump of yellow is actually giving you the acceleration. The orange is giving you a little bit of the nod to the target. But that particular lens in that profile is one that works extremely well when you're searching for light and that really is opening up and dilating for you. And I really think that that lens is a really special flat-light lens and one that you know certainly was a hole for us because we kind of went away from the persimmon for a little bit. It really was a lens for the 2016 Olympics that we were articulating the original design for in the 62 and over the years we've just had customers keep coming back and say, well, man, we really like that particular persimmon profile and the 58 that we came in for a 23, I thought was just a really really spot on.
Dennis/Phil:I ran out of it at the nationals.
Dennis/Phil:You know, at the nationals this year, phil, it was rainy, cloudy, you know just and people got to look through it by me and, like I said, when I go somewhere and people look through it and I run out of a lens or they buy it, that's just telling me how much people like it, instead of selling it over the phone or over the internet and you know you overnighted me some, I think twice because it just was very popular down there. One last lens that I kind of want to just talk about real quick is that 30 CDC. You know it's that blue lens and I think a lot of people are confused by it, by thinking you know what it does or what it doesn't do. And you know I, you know put it this way, you know why this is, but you know I see David Radulovic wearing it and maybe you can just explain that 30 CDC was a unique lens and just a little bit about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we in 2014, we started working with Zeiss on some patented lens science where in the archery space we were taking FIDA targets, which were, you know, the targets used in Olympic target shooting, and it has a basically a golden yellow center, then a red ring and then a blue ring, and the articulation of the technology was basically to kill the red ring and allow an archer who is, you know, looking through a peep site 70 yards away from the target and have that center yellow piece glow. So we patented that particular technology where we were able to actually reverse color with those particular lenses, to focus in on the target, which was our dead center technology. And then I had the idea where we were having a lot of shooters out there complaining that when an orange target sort of gets into white puffy clouds or really heavy you know sort of background that is got the same sort of value as the target in terms of light, that it would have a flash effect where they would kind of lose it. So I had the idea to work with Zeiss to create a technology where we use that same type of patented technology that we had for the dead center technology to use it on orange targets to turn the orange target completely the other direction, where it wasn't an enhancement tool, it was actually a deadening tool of changing orange to dark, gray or black depending on how you see through the technology. And that really was the genesis behind the Chromachift dead center lens.
Speaker 4:That is a 30 transmittance and it is really efficient in helping shooters that are chasing targets in the sky and really losing them because of the color value of the orange when it actually gets the sun popping off of it or it's not a hundred percent face and you get that kind of reflective nature of the target against that sort of same level of intensity background.
Speaker 4:If we took orange and we started flipping it around and really made it a huge contrast between black and white, so to speak, against the sky, we would have a lot of success.
Speaker 4:And we went through a bunch of iterations when we finally found where the sweet spot was with that particular type of thinking. And the 30 CDC lens is just one that has taken off for us and it really stems from a lot of people taking our dead center archery lenses into the shooting world early on and that particular type of spectral curve that's in that lens really enhances black as well. So for people that are more color deficient, it also helps take out that particular sort of deficiency and really makes things more dominant in terms of the density of the color, swinging it to dark, gray and black. So you'll see the targets that much better. So for a guy that's not deficient in terms of red-green, the swing of color really shows up in terms of really putting the target out there as a contrasting element against the background by swinging it to that gray and black color. So it's a very specific utility type lens. But that particular lens is one that we certainly have had in the last, since we've introduced it six months, some real success with that particular lens.
Dennis/Phil:Now let me put it in a shooter's term. So you're shooting feet, to ask, and you have a and Brett's throwing an orange target on edge at Northbrook Probably should have a black edge on it, but for some reason he's throwing an orange and then it's a bio target, which means it's got a white pitch to it too. And there is times where I know all these shooters out there know that sometimes you're like I couldn't see it, I couldn't pick it up. I couldn't pick it up. So that 30 CDC. What that lens does, it doesn't make that orange look more orange. What it's doing, it's making that orange target at least look like a black target in the sky, so at least you can see it and hit it. That's what that lens designer. It's not meant to help you see orange better. It's meant to gray it out, blacken it out, so at least you're not gonna miss it. And we all like shooting black targets in the sky. So if you have something like that, it's just I have to tell people it's like tools in their toolboxes and I tell people you can get through life with one pair of shoes. But you're gonna get yourself in a situation where, gee, I wish I had different pair of shoes and same thing with these lenses.
Dennis/Phil:I think the thing that I deal with all day, phil, is like color deficiencies, and the only thing I'd like to let people know out there that are listening to this is like, do your homework, figure out how you see color, like when you, if your buddy has some lenses, if I tell people, if you tell me lenses you don't like, that helps me, help you. You know what I mean. If you say you put this on and you didn't like it. Or there's an Israha test, color deficiency test there. You know, go to colorblindtestonline, figure out if you're colorblind. And you know four out of ten guys are dutent colorblind but, like my optician says, 93% of guys have some sort of red deficiencies.
Dennis/Phil:So when we try to help people get into all these lenses and or people ask, why do you have so many lenses, it's because all our you know rods and cones are unique to us and our cones, you know. What happens is you know they detect color differently. Sometimes, you know a cone may overlap, meaning that you know a red or green cone aren't able to do their job properly, leaving you with like a muddled view of red and green. So I work all day just trying to listen to people and in a lot of times you know, I see, you know you have a lot of reds in a lot of these new products, but I think that caters to a lot of those red deficiencies. But in I think it's it's. I really like the fact that we have so many options because, like for me, for instance, I like reds.
Dennis/Phil:You know that, phil there's no reason I can't shoot a 56 blood orange or 55 PwC, but there's just certain colors that just really accelerate that, that orange. So on that true pair, you know, I can just pick that second target up so much quicker, and so that's what we're just trying to do here. I think is just the best way to explain it. But you know, the main thing I want to say is, if people are listening to this, do you know, try to do your homework, and that's by trying on your buddy's glasses. You know, telling me things that do work, that don't work, and and figuring out if you're colorblind. Take some colorblind tests, go online, they're free and just figure out if you have any deficiencies. And if you do, I think we can help you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, 100%, you know. I mean the bottom line is is we have a portfolio of options to deliver a complete opportunity, from full sun to low light, and we have a myriad of different technologies and different utilities that happen across that particular light spectrum. That will help you find a success in seeing what you're ultimately trying to hit. But I would also say one of the things that is is also not talked about a lot is a proper fitting pair of glasses, because to get the maximum utility out of the filter, having, you know, the larger format masks that we're known for helps the eye not only relax but also, once the eye is relaxed, open and able to look through the lens itself without a lot of interference in terms of light and those kinds of things. That really helps the eye be able to appreciate the filter that they're looking through. So you know that sort of thought in thinking about whether you know you want a larger or a standard size lens, migrating from a standard outlaw to maybe a top-down outlaw, those kinds of things the more coverage you can provide the eye and have the glasses fit close to your eyes. Why we have the sweat bars and those kinds of things to bounce off your forehead.
Speaker 4:The ergonomics of the frame, in my opinion, also help enhance the delivery of the performance of the lens.
Speaker 4:So that is an important aspect where you know, when we're working with Zeiss, we are constantly working on the optics of the delivery of the frame system and all our products are made as a marriage between frame and lens in terms of the geometries of what we're putting out there.
Speaker 4:So I just wanted to put in there that we're talking a lot about lens science and how people see color differently and the transmittance values and the opportunity to sort of dive into a color family that works for you.
Speaker 4:But also I would say that the intensity of the performance of the product is also something that is really important to get a pair of glasses, in terms of the models that we offer, that fits great and actually fits your face close enough so that the lens has proper coverage and also mitigates any ancillary light coming from the sides or the top or the bottom. You know, sometimes I see someone wearing a pair of glasses and the nose pieces on the tip of their nose and I'm like, well, that's really not helping you, even though we have these really awesome seven layer anti-reflectives on the inside of the lens which is by far the best anti-reflective in the business that we have developed with Zeiss. The reality is you got to really tuck the product onto your face properly. So that's just a sort of a deviation from the discussion we're having. But you will find that the performance of the lens is that much better when you have more coverage.
Dennis/Phil:I think when people put pilas on right away they're like wow. I think some of the awe and some of the wow comes from Phil, the fact of the seven layers of anti-reflective coating.
Dennis/Phil:I think it's quieting all that light noise out People don't know that you know, even on the trap field, you know that the grass is reflecting light and everything and you put those glasses on and it just quiets everything down. But while we're talking about coatings, real quick, I mean you mentioned something to me the other day that you know the cost of this ice coating. You know that, you know it's, you know you know it's that the easiest or cheapest thing to do, but performance-wise. You know the ice coatings spent out, both the hydrophilic and hydrophobic coating just spent two minutes on that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously everyone in the listening community and certainly around the world that uses our product understands that we don't make a product that is the least expensive product on the market. And there's a reason. You know, when my dad and I decided to do this way, back when we decided that, you know we weren't going to make a compromise on the product itself to fit a specific price point. We just wanted to make the very best product we possibly could. And when we teamed up with Zeiss and did our engineering partnership with Zeiss, the reality was we didn't want to ever come to the market which Zeiss wouldn't be a fan of either, in terms of a compromise product. The reality is the product itself benefits from a very high level of coating science on all of our lenses and every single one of them has this level of performance from using state-of-the-art anti-reflectives, state-of-the-art hydrophilic and hydrophobic coatings hydrophilic being one of the hallmarks of the new ice science that we brought to market last year, which is an absolute killer addition to all of our lenses, where the lens helps retard steaming and fogging and those kinds of things. It's not 100% fog proof, but in some pretty precarious situations where you have a high level of humidity, the performance of the lens is stout and that happens by moisture being actually spread across the backside of the lens so that you don't have any adherence of moisture on the lens. So the hydrophobic is the pushing of water away and that's the sheeting of the water and rain and all those kinds of things. The nature of those particular coatings, married with what we're doing with our infrared science, and one of the things that a lot of people have talked about over the years is does the lens actually have UV coating protection? And the reality is, yeah, every single one of our lenses is true UV 400 protection of all three forms of UV. But we also introduced this infrared coating which has a performance, color profile, performance enhancer.
Speaker 4:But it also helps retard infrared light and that aspect, from a health standpoint, is now pervasively used in every single one of the lenses that Pila produces. And that particular aspect in terms of helping retard that harmful level of light in terms of infrared, has not been talked about very much at all, and that's something that a lot of people should pay attention to, because it definitely is a precursor to the onset of macular degeneration and a whole bunch of other effects that are harmful by being outside and the incidence of light being traveled through the material, in terms of it retarding certain aspects of what we're trying to prevent getting to the eye and the infrared piece of it, is something that you'll find. Also, that there's a cooling effect to your eye as well in using the lenses, where when you have a nice lens on, you have a very relaxed eye because it's helping retard infrared light. So that particular aspect of our coding science is going on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's obviously a very expensive multi-layer approach to coding the lenses and getting inside of the vacuum chambers we use.
Speaker 4:That ensures deposition across the entire lens surface and Zeiss kicks out a lot of the yield.
Speaker 4:So hence our lenses become more expensive because the yield on our lenses is relatively low in comparison to manufacturers out there that use polycarbonate and push lenses out like cookies.
Speaker 4:So we have a very expensive start to finish in terms of really what the yield is in terms of the native substrate we're using to get X amount of lenses and then the deposition of the coatings across the lenses, the inspection of the lenses and the certification that goes on all of our lenses from Zeiss in terms of the Zed mark on the backside of the lens, certifying its quality of meeting not only the Zeiss specification but also the Zeiss standard of it passing to the level of spec that we hold ourselves up to, which is alphalmic.
Speaker 4:It is not sunglass, so we have a much higher standard that we put into our lenses and that sort of coding science also kicks out some lenses when the deposition in terms of the vacuum chamber is not 100% uniform. So we really pay attention to the details in terms of each lens is a very specific piece of equipment that we're putting out that has to meet a whole bunch of, you know, thresholds to make it into one of the pila frames. So that's something that we're really proud of and Certainly we make no excuse for the cost of it because we're bringing a level of performance that we are very proud to put out there.
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, and I can say you know it's the product itself. You know my pet, your passion for the product you know rubs off on me and and you know I, you know the reason that you know it's it in. It's the best product out there in, you know a handstone and I'm glad that.
Intro:I don't do anything else I don't sell gun cleaning equipment.
Dennis/Phil:I don't sell. All I do is sell glasses. But, justin, did you want to say anything or you want me to keep going?
Justin:Yeah, I'm here. I just while you were talking you and Phil were talking, I took. I heard you say something about color blind tests online, so I took my own color blind test online and I just texted to you. Do you look at it?
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, I see it here You're 100% blue cone, 100% green, and and just this just confirms kind of like what I say that you know my optician says 93% of guys are some sort of in your, 87% in your red cone. And that just makes sense, justin, like when you and I were at Northbrook, um, you know, last summer and you tried on the 47, I could see you know that your eyes liked it and and that's that's what I kind of would like everyone to try to do. You know, if you're a serious shooter out there and and you know this, you have the passion for this game. Help yourself and help me, help you by. You know whether it's a Ishihara Test or the test you took here was a proton color blind test.
Justin:Yeah, I'll include it in the notes on the on the episode so people can take it.
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, no, and and and that can really help. You know, like I said, I'm just, I'm thankful for the support Phil gives me, and you know, proud to sell the product and obviously I think you can tell the passion that we both have for it. And, and you know, if you need something, you know Clay Target vision. You know, like I said, you know we're getting bigger and bigger but we don't want to lose that customer service and we want it.
Dennis/Phil:you know every customer is important to me. The one thing I did forget I forgot to mention Jared Greenwood. I want to mention Jared because of everybody Jared's still. You know Jared does a lot for me, so I just wanted to mention Jared.
Justin:Yeah, all right, we did this last episode. We'll do this episode again, all right? 23 is out or over, with Top three lenses for you, dennis, and the top three lenses for you, phil. Which one if you had to pick three?
Dennis/Phil:Well, when you say pick three, for me it like on my Dennis's choice on my website. I go with that 19 CIN. I think it's become our number one. Yes, it is it. Has it, phil, taken over the 18 CED? It's good that 19,. You know CIN is good. Then I go with a 36 C palm. And then you know low light lenses. You can't get a lot of pop out of a low light lens because it doesn't have a lot of color to accelerate color. But I kind of like that 70 new, 72 CIMX because I think it you can use it as a night lens, you can use it as a low light lens. So 19 CIN, 36 C palm and 72 CIMX is mine. You go, phil.
Speaker 4:For me. I definitely like a balanced lens in full sun. So for me I love the 9.5 CID and the 26 CID, both those depending on how much available light there is. So in full sun I really dig the balanced lens. But I have to say that my favorite lens to date in full sun is the 15 C IHC. For me it's got a touch of red in that lens and it's really been an evolved lens for us over the past, you know a couple of years.
Speaker 4:But that 15, which is our cranberry lens, I just love that particular lens in full sun now and then in medium light I'm definitely a 50 CIS guy. I really love our strawberry lens. For me that's just a beautifully balanced nod to target orange and medium light. And for me in lower light I am definitely a big fan of our grapefruit lens. It's got a little bit of pink in it, you know, and for me that does work really well in terms of still popping the target in and diminishing light. So those would be my two favorite, you know, three favorite lenses, even though I still, you know, think that our enhanced definition lenses are really stout. For me the 15 C IHC kind of took the front seat when we, when we came out with that particular, and so 1550 and the 84 1550, 84.
Justin:All right, I got one more question that we'll get off. A lot of people not stood the shooting seasons back in swing, full swing, I guess you would say they're shooting make a break under the lights. They're shooting their local ski tournaments under the lights, what you know? It's dark with lights. On what lenses do they need to be looking towards?
Speaker 4:Yeah, for me it's always interesting because I actually wear a darker lens under the lights than you would normally. You know, see someone because I just love the value of the target accentuation. But for me the 60 watermelon is just a fantastic light for under the lights. And the 84, you know my go to low light lens is great under the lights. But we've really had tremendous feedback with the 92 C IL under the lights, which is our lime lens. The benefit of the 98 AR, which is basically a clear lens at a 98 transmittance it has an enhanced anti reflective that takes out the fluorescence of the lighting. But for me having some filtration is really a benefit. So, either of those three lenses if you want something that's got a little bit more pop under the lights the 60 and then the 80 and the 94 and the 92. Those are just all really great under the Wow, is a 92 line.
Justin:Is that something new? I hadn't heard of that one yet.
Speaker 4:The 92 C IL is the infrared version of our lime lens. We've had a low light lime lens for a couple of years and we also have in a progressive format in the new infrared, which is something that we didn't talk about tonight. But you know, we have a whole new infrared progressive line of lenses that are that are really quite impressive in terms of what the science behind them is doing in terms of constricting your iris and allowing you know you to dilate out and have you know, more depth perception in the utility of the lenses.
Dennis/Phil:Phil thinks Phil thinks our progressive lenses you know the gen two progressive lenses is the best technology we have right now and I have trouble, you know I, you know like Mike Wilgus at the nationals I gave him some and you know he's my best guy out there right now that you know at least try to pair. And he's like, wow, you know and. But you know Phil always says that and you could probably explain it better, phil. But I agree with you. The new progressives. They're more consistent from top to bottom. The IR coatings. The fact that you know it does tighten your iris up, gives you better depth perception and people are looking for one lens to where. You know. The nice thing about a progressive is it covers a broader light spectrum so you can use it in a lower light, in a higher light, and one lens. You know, if you only had one pair of shoes, a progressive would be a good choice.
Speaker 4:The, the progressive technology is definitely, you know, purely from a science standpoint. I love it because it is really performing a level of functionality to the design that none of the other solid filtered lenses do and the spectral curves in them we have, I think, are just absolutely awesome. But the getting back to Justin's where the lime come from, that the lime is in the progressive a pretty stout lens for under the lights as well. But the lime profile, I would say, believe it or not, is one of the top four lenses overall that we sell on a global footprint. It's just one of those lenses that universally works for people in low light but under the lights you know shooting, you know make or break or a five stand or whatnot. It's really a nice lens for that particular situation as well.
Dennis/Phil:I can confirm all that too, what Phil just said. But you notice, you know he brought up to 60 water on 84 pink grapefruit and the 92 green. Reds and greens are always going to be your best for contrast and in other words, for contrast is that separation. So I do sell more 92 CILs or even go to nationals. Go watch a shoot off. I bet you're 50% of the people out there have that 92 on Phil.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean it's just a really nice lens because it has have, you know, a bit of filter in it that is going to accentuate what you're looking at. So, and then certainly you know the the higher transmittance value lenses have a really high performance anti reflective. You know science on them as well.
Justin:So it's all well, I think I need to try one of those.
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, you probably should.
Speaker 4:And I know where you can get it to.
Dennis/Phil:Yeah, and, and, and. You know no, bryce has a seven. I gotta get you.
Justin:Hey, phil, my son has one and I don't have one, so yeah so anyway and the 72 C and a 72 CIMX.
Dennis/Phil:I think you need to, but your son doesn't have one of those. I know that.
Justin:Yeah, I don't know what he's got. Well, guys, I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate the the oh thanks for having us again, and we'll yeah, no, I appreciate you, Justin.
Dennis/Phil:You do a lot for me too and and, like I said, your friendship means a lot to me and, like I said, I always appreciate it when you, you know, come up to Northbrook and and look forward to having you up there for the US.
Justin:Yeah, next time have me. Have me some, a big bag of gummy bears and not a little bitty one. Okay.
Dennis/Phil:What about melted ones?
Justin:Yeah, they melt it all together. I was like what is this, Dennis? All right guys, thank you and we'll talk to you later. Yeah.
